i love your last paragraph T. i love horror and exploitation and could not sum up my love of it better than u have your love of black wave. Also i loved your lost highway thread. actually your post here is perfect. i am new here and guilty of IMDBisms but find it hard to get into some discussions because i feel intimidated and/or stupid, like i have never seen a movie in my life. happy 1 year (sort of i guess…)
Thanks. re: hard discussions… I hear ya. I was thinking about starting a film discussion group, maybe in Garage, a kind of decompression thread for everyone where we set some standards on how we talk to each other (RESPECT), and get into conversation without the testosterone dripping brainsqueeze competition of some topics. I know there’s already an Auteurs film club brewing, but I was thinking of something less logo-bound and more in-depth— a study of a single film > from the Auteurs library > covering all angles, from a how they created that shot practical cinematography perspective, all the way down to a debate on possible interpretations. One film every month.
Thoughts, anyone?
the more debate and discussion, the better. i think we’re all craving the same thing.
so i’m dying to ask. why do you think black wave is 90% shit? and what can you not digest in it?
haha ah… I don’t know ! If I knew I would be able to chew it down, but it just gets masticated between my teeth and in the end I spit the whole thing out and have to start over. I love the feeling behind the NOVI movement (can you call it a movement? I guess not really, more just a loose collection of filmmakers bound by common experience and hamstrung by censorship and lack of resources)… Pavlović I get, I think. I’m still hunting down some Žilnik. Makavejev… I have that Salo/Pasolini disease again, where I can’t let go of some intense anger at the work mixed with jealousy and admiration at its execution, and a fight within myself to accept it. I guess part of the problem is that I haven’t seen enough of the films to get an overall sense of where Black Wave was at in real terms. I’m mostly interested in HOW they made these films, the cameras they used, the atmospheres around the productions themselves, how they got it distributed, this kind of thing. Sweet Movie I love for the stabs at Eisenstein and I think the film works perfectly as a study of corrupt (consumerist) values… but I don’t like it. It makes an odd color in my head. It’s day-glow sick.
You see, none of these objections or struggles to understand are rational. Sometimes, I feel like my interest and love of film can’t be explained or expounded upon rationally. It’s experiential.
As far as Black Wave goes— on the one hand, I understand more and more about NOVI from a political and cultural POV. On the other, I’m just a guy in a room looking at a screen and wondering what it is about that particular scene of a woman masturbating in a bukakke like spill of liquid chocolate that preempts everything I loathe about society.
I’m interested in the film discussion thread. That sounds like one of the best ideas I’ve heard on these forums in a long time.
>>i love your last paragraph T. i love horror and exploitation and could not sum up my love of it better than u have your love of black wave.<<
I was thinking the same thing (and about the same genre!) as I read T.252.Am’s post. I think anyone who has a fascination/love for any low-budget genre must feel the same thing. In his eulogy for Barry Brown, the late Cal Beck referred to it a “searching for diamonds in the dust,” and I think that sums it up well & poetically. In the case of horror, if it weren’t for the occasional aarival of something like PAN’S LABYRINTH to offset the SAW and HOSTEL franchises and their imitators, I think I’d give up on anything made since 1980 or so (trying to recall when Stuart Gordon started in …)
>>I’m interested in the film discussion thread. That sounds like one of the best ideas I’ve heard on these forums in a long time.<<
But we’ve all got to take an oath to substitute “I didn’t see it that way” for “You’re wrong!”
OK, let’s pick a film. Suggestions? First and only rule. It must be a film we can find here onsite and it must be one that almost anyone can get hold of to watch. So that excludes the Black Wave. Unless we did Sweet Movie, which I think we can watch here at The Auteurs.
First suggestions to get the ball rolling—
Salo (Pasolini) — tough one, but rich in everything from camerawork and cinematography to character and allegory.
Le Feu Follet (Malle)
Elevator to the Gallows (Malle)
Hiroshima, Mon Amour (Resnais)
or a classic Noir to begin.
I’ve already seen Hiroshima, Mon Amour, but really feel like I need to see it again. I would pick that one, but I haven’t seen the other three, and feel like I really need to. So, I would be open to all of those. (Sorry I’m a very indecisive person).
As far as noir… There’s Sunset Boulevard, and Double Indemnity which if you have TCM would be really easy to see because they both play about three times each month. Third Man would be another one that would be really easy because the cinematography, and lighting is so rich and deep we could spend the entire month just talking about those elements.
I guess my overall vote would go for Hiroshima, but I would have no problem with any of them.
T as I read more and more of your recent stuff, I can’t agree more, and with this thread I’d like to say “you’re my hero” haha. The sentiments in this thread are awesome, let’s revolutionize the boards!
oh and even though I plan to be a part of the auteurs film club that’s brewing, I would totally still ike to get down on the thread proposed earlier, and would be willing to watch or re-watch any of the aforementioned films!
I love it. It might be better to present a film a week in advance so those of us who haven’t watched them yet can participate. I just got into watching film for education, not entertainment, recently.
T, I’m down with your one film per month proposal. Just one thing, please sweet jesus no Kubrick. I love him. He’s great. But shit…
“sweet movie” isnt a black wave film. it was produced outside of yugoslavia with foreign money by a self-exiled director, after the phase had subsided.
novi film wasnt a formal movement, per se, but then again, neither was the french new wave. the truth is that they share a lot in common, along with the polish and czech new waves. they were united in their ideology, and their methodology. in that sense, maybe novi film was more of a movement than the french wave was.
the novi filmmakers didn’t really suffer for a lack of resources. they lived in a federal socialist republic. all of their films were supported by the state. there was no private enterprises. true, some filmmakers and certain themes got a more lavish treatment. but they didnt really have any problems getting their films made.
black wave films were made pretty similar to any other film. they were shot on 35 mm. distribution was a bit tricky. again, socialist country. the films played all over, but if the authorities didn’t like you, you got a really limited release. but you still got released. and the films still played in international festivals where they won a lot of awards.
that being said, i’d love to use “sweet movie” as our discussion point. but i’ll never argue against a goood classic noir either. whatever you guys prefer.
I think its a great idea. T, pick a movie.
I only skimmed this T, and will give it its due soon, but I do indeed agree that setting up structures within the lose structure of the forum (ie discussion groups, film clubs and other sui genesis organization) is a great way of seeding, growing, and nurturing the kind of discussion you, I, and many others would love to have on this site.
T.252.AM: I see you are back in the fray, ol’ buddy, and the boards are really heating up again! We were complaining recently that threads and posts were getting boring, but here you come to light a fire – well deserved and needed – under these mordant and mundane posers/posters. You have survived a year, in all manner of guises (where’s that Against Mr Boo character hiding out now?), and the auteurs is usually quite dull without you and some of you good ol’ boys and gals from the early days showing up. Shotzi dropped in for a visit awhile back, and asked if anything worth a damn was being discussed. Not too much, really, but we do now have lots of pretty pictures on site – and poems. As for discussion of film – well, some of us try to get it going, but the next thread pops up and it quickly gets buried. Do what you and posters here think is necessary to get things moving in the right direction again, T.252.AM.
When I first joined, over 4 month and 860+ posts ago, it was a beehive of activity. One felt intimidated, at first (but one grew out of it) to match wits with the scintillating and insightful company. I read many of the older posts at the time, and was astonished at the range and dynamics of discussion – with many great posts from yourself to stimulate cranky thought processes. Since those heady early days for me, I have seen many thoughtful and brilliant posters bug-off, bug-out, and go down in flames. Few have managed to hang on by the short, short hairs through all the muck that has sometimes transpired. Too many threads, too many ridiculous posts, too many flaming lists – and I am just talking about my own here. We desparately need revitalization, as I am going really stale (and tired) these days and was starting to despair – but for the occasional bright lights out there in auteur land (you know who you are). Since we have lost around 90% of the original posters since I joined (!), I am glad to have you back in action. Go out and kick some auteur butt – including my own when I get too pompous or pretentious – moi?
" fresh-from-mother’s-tit-pseudo-bohemianism" – yeah, lots of that here – I am just weaned, myself!
alright then. to quote pulp fiction, “lets not start sucking each others dicks just yet!” enough patting ourselves on the back about wanting to start great conversations. when are we actually gonna start great conversations?
I’m going to throw my support behind Salo for the first film; it can deliver a lot of discussion and divide users. Salo is the necessary catalyst to really get the board heated up and promote this film-of-the-month thing.
This idea reminds me of the “Is Kane the Greatest Film or Best Hyped?” thread that caused a lot of intense and interesting dissection of the idea of “greatest”. It hopefully will lead to users being actively engaged with the threads here instead of passively, which list threads can cause since people merely contribute arbitrarily.
Bobby hahahahahaha… yeah. And thanks for the Black Wave clarification. I’m not getting it: all my reading (and this is probably just me willfully ignoring evidence) lead me to believe that BW/NOVI was more down and dirty, low-budget than it is. This ‘reading’ is an act of willful denial— largely bec. I am looking for a precedent in something I am trying to do elsewhere. Seriously, you know about this stuff: where should I begin (again)? and PLEASE recommend me some lit.
Also, when I asked about means of prod. what I meant was more specific — what film stock, developing techniques, etc. I love the look of Sweet Movie. It’s been developed with a particular color/chroma chemical process. I want to know more about this bec. I’m just now opening a 35 mm movie film lab, and I’m investing in stock.
Bob you’re the bloody best mate, and when the new rep. system comes in I’ll think you’ll find yourself well rewarded for all your work: I had no idea you’ve actually exceeded my posts! And each one beautifully written. I’m also upset like you that so many good posters have dropped off the map: for ex. Biberkopf, and a number of the original Garage crew. Let’s make a concerted effort to keep the fires alight from now on, and get new people in.
Also: re: mother’s tit. You’re not as ungrizzly as you think man. Your posts, always eloquent and polite, show massive insight gleaned from many years of independent thought, they are often hard, incisive and raw— you’re way past nipples and babymilk : )
So
To discuss:
no KUBRICK, no SPIELBERG, no DARK KNIGHT, no other BULLSHIT. We’re up for a full autopsy here, and the debate should be challenging enough that we all feel at the end of it that nobody cruised through.
From an easy POV, I like the idea of >
a Noir (BLAST OF SILENCE? MALTESE FALCON?)
or something accessible like THE THIRD MAN
or ELEVATOR TO THE GALLOWS followed the next month by LE FEU FOLLET
> bec. there’s a lot to be said about cinematography, the characterization in each case is simple and iconic enough (but rich in meaning) and the narrative structures are classic.
Less easy but equally rich is HIROSHIMA MON AMOUR. I can see this one being a little tricky when we bring the influence of Duras to the table. Let’s be honest here: it’s 80% men on these boards, and Duras can come across as rottweiler when you start to read into her writings on masculinity. I’d like to discuss it, but my instinct says maybe we should hang back a month or two until we’ve established group dynamics. A nice triple discussion would be HIROSHIMA, NIAGARA and FAT GIRL.
From a light a fire on the boards perspective…
SALO (with maybe PORCILE thrown in as an extra)
or SWEET MOVIE. I have to say that I am dying to do SALO, bec.
> I had some revelations about both films last month, and I’d love to have a chance to debate it (although that said, I’m re-evaluating my whole Black Wave ignorance right now, so my SWEET MOVIE revelation is askew).
> It covers such a huge ground from censorship and morality to art and language, and I think it’s extremely relevant to the contemporary
film scene.
> PASOLINI is fascinating as an Auteur, and so is Makavejev.
BUT let’s be honest: both SALO and SWEET MOVIE are the kind of films where division will erupt and there’s a chance that could kill the debate quickly. If we do SALO, I’d like to establish from the outset that we’re going to try to remain open minded, and where we have a strong aversion to the content, we’re going to try to examine WHY we feel like that.
On the other hand, why wait to throw that molotov cocktail, eh?
I’m saying SALO
yes? no?
Yes go with Salo. I have been putting off watching it so this will give me a reason I have to.
At this exact point, I guess we all have one weeks notice.
Get a copy of SALO and watch it.
Get a copy of LE FEU FOLLET and watch it.
We’ll decide which one is first when everyone’s confirmed they have access to one of these movies (and we will all probably be watching the film more than once, as we’re going to reverse-engineer whichever one we decide to discover its truth and mechanics). I’ll talk to powers that be, see if we can’t get some extra functionality for the thread, like a direct link back to the film online, etc.
It’s incredible, all the new films, that are in the Auteurs, I think, that some movies are exagerated
Don’t understand. What do you mean, Buffalo? You think there’s a better film to discuss? It’s an open thread, dive in.
No, I think, there are greats films, but not all, like Benjamin Button, and another’s, but is just a comentary, because I start to look all the new films, in The Auteurs
Ah, I understand. Yes!
Garrel’s Night Wind is available for viewing here. I’d love to put that one into our crucible.
I don’t think a lot of people want to pay to participate, or at least I won’t.
No paying. Defeats the purpose.
Hmmm… I wonder. OK give me a day, I have to ask some questions of higher authorities… see what criteria (so to speak) might get us a free pass on a discussion movie.
everything’s relative. the black wave/novi films were low budget in relation to hollywood production. so if we’re using western standards as our measuring stick, thats what it is.
the problem is that this subject hasnt been written about in detail in the english language. here are the books that can give you some bits and pieces:
- liberated cinema by daniel goulding
- disintegration in frames by pavle levi
- the cinema of the balkans edited by dina iordanova
as far as the kind of technical details you’re looking for, i cant lend too much information. but i would think that its safe to say that they utilized the basic 35mm film stocks and processed their films straightforwardly. i dont think bleach-bypassing or any of these other fancy techniques were used in the 60s. and i’ve never seen a film of theirs that had an anti-traditional film look.
T
Today is the day I signed up for The Auteurs, one year ago.
So here’s some thoughts.
I’ve written something close to 790 posts in this forum.
The bulk of those are either cries for filmmakers to galvanize and move towards a new horizon in (truly) independent film-making, stop pissing about with mainstream dreaming and union cards and self-denial and collaborate now…
…or arguments with people who think that a capacity for academic eloquence will allow them to disguise their MOR fresh-from-mother’s-tit-pseudo-bohemianism (yeah, I’m still looking for a real fight). The arguments aren’t real enough to be important, but the film-making stuff (aka Garage) is, and has begun to lead somewhere practical as opposed to just “chew the fat” musings.
BUT I’m getting jaded, burnt out with the spaghetti junction/traffic jam/white noise of IMDBisms and soundbites that has become this forum. I’m also sick to death of lists and celebrity death matches between X and X director.
For the first few months, I was furiously engaged in reviewing (deleted many of these— but I have started again recently from scratch). Even posted a few lists, before I saw the dull gray light at the end of that particularly dank tunnel. Then I became more focused on group dynamics, which is what gave birth to the thwarted (but not dead) film 05 project. Now I’m working on something else, something bigger, more in lines with my real film-making ambitions.
I saw The Auteurs as a modern Cahiers Du Cinema, and still do. I read the Notebooks on feed as often as I can. They are bloody excellent.
But I’d really like to be able to have a conversation on this forum for once, and not some stupid haha one upmanship bullshit. Seriously, I couldn’t give a shit how clever you think you are. I don’t come here to pronounce, and if I do, it’s typically a gambit to open a debate. I come here to learn, to grow, to challenge my beliefs, to expand my horizons— not shrinkwrap them to some sleep-easy-in-my-bed-at-night identity tag. I am not defined by my DVD collection anymore than I am defined by my choice of breakfast (strong black coffee and a bowl of Count Chocula). If I happen to like Black Wave cinema, this has nothing to do with me thinking it’s hip (I actually think its 90% shit but there’s a 10% compulsive fascination, a part of my brain that cannot digest what it sees and keeps coming back for another bite— like not being able to tear your eyes away from a murder scene, even though you just threw up all over your shoes).
Anyway there’s no point to this thread. I just felt like speaking up.
Happy 1 year Auteurs birthday to me.