Aaugh! I can’t believe a match is already starting where I haven’t seen either of the films yet. I know I insisted several times at the beginning of this I wouldn’t stress out about seeing all of the films, but I should have know that would have been too difficult for me to avoid!
Greece (The Beekeeper) 0 – Kazakhstan (The Needle) 1
Here’s a case where one film ended up being more than I expected and the other less than I expected. Still, a lesser Angelopoulos is still a very good film, but it is definitely the least favorite of all of his films I’ve seen.
Nice to see something from Kazakhstan that doesn’t involve Borat. Initially I thought I had this film pegged, but as it went on I found its treatment of the characters memorizing and I was pulled in more and more. Very much enjoyed the camerawork as well.
Easy vote for me on this one.
Nice to see something from Kazakhstan that doesn’t involve Borat
??? omirbaev? last cup?
Greece (The Beekeeper) 0 – Kazakhstan (The Needle) 1
okay, angelopoulos can be a great chronicler of modern greece, but the needle told a tale of its time and place too, and was all kinds of things i like – neurotic, hysteric, aimless and cool. could have done without so much junkie and with much more spartak, but other than that, great fun.
Yeah, so I’m a Kazakhstan newbie.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I’m also an idiot. I’ve seen a couple of Omirbaev’s films.
Greece (The Beekeeper) 0 – Kazakhstan (The Needle) 1
i felt pretty equal about these films. they were both good in their own way, i just prefer The Needle, personally.
Greece (The Beekeeper) 1 – Kazakhstan (The Needle) 0
I’m not in love with The Beekeeper, and it is the point where Angelopoulos’s films start to head downhill for me. But the protagonist of The Needle was too far on the side of obnoxious, and 80s punk really isn’t my thing.
Greece (The Beekeeper) 0 – Kazakhstan (The Needle) 1
I’m a bit biased but how can you not vote for a singular post-punk soviet classic? And Viktor Tsoi was like Ian Curtis and Kurt Cobain rolled into one…..
I think The Needle made me a fan of Kino and Viktor Tsoi, loved the flick! And can’t wait to see my first Angelopoulos tomorrow!
Greece (The Beekeeper) 1 – Kazakhstan (The Needle) 0
The Beekeeper : I loved this film. It wasn’t top shelf Angelopoulos but it was definitely one of his better films. A man tries to forget the repressed emotions for his daughter and his failed marriage by trying to find refuge in the past in the form of Beekeeping, but unfortunately another young girl seems to make him face his inner demons. When he loses self control, all his repressed emotions come out in a flood of passion that ends up consuming himself in its rage. For some reason, I seem to relate with tragic heroes that often have repressed emotions and hence I wasn’t surprised that I loved this stories premise as well. Angelopoulos has executed it very well with his characteristic blue tinged photography and long shots. I was also happy with Marcello Mastroianni’s role which I thought was very well developed. Overall this was a great discovery.
The Needle : This film has its moments but its simply not my type.
Wow… I was just watching O Melissokomo last night. Beautiful film. Too bad I don’t have access to The Needle. Can’t wait to have time to participate in the forum again. Where is awesome Dimitris anyway?
Greece (The Beekeeper) 0 – Kazakhstan (The Needle) 1
I like Angelopoulos, and the Beekeper is a fine film (though I would have preferred to see the initial 20 minutes longer cut by Angelopoulos) but I simply ADORE Igla, and it’s easily in my Top 100 films. So poor old Mastroianni stands no chance against Viktor Tsoy this time. :-) And Nugmanov reveals himself to be an equally great director and social observer as Angelopoulos. Wow. This is the 80s “A bout de souffle”!!!
Greece (The Beekeeper) 0 / Kazakhstan (The Needle) 1
Greece (The Beekeeper) 0 – Kazakhstan (The Needle) 1
And I think that makes it 7-2 for Kazakhstan =o
Greece (The Beekeeper) 0 – Kazakhstan (The Needle) 1
The Beekeeper is a an old man’s masturbatury fantasy. Angelopoulos is far better with politics and history and this film is by far his worst. A shame this film was chosen in my opinion as the less known Days of 36 and The Hunters are far better than this piece of tosh. I laughed my head off at the end. The funniest death scene I have seen in any film. I never knew Angelopoulos was big on comedy. Still I think I would opt to shoving my head in a bee’s nest than sit through The Beekeeper again.
The Needle was good but not that good. I saw a lot of Suzuki’s influence rather than Godard’s A Bout de Souffle as one user commented on earlier. The snow scene at the end seemed like a nod to Fighting Elegy, but then again I might be reading too much into it. It was an enjoyable romp with some nice photographic angles, but a film that will fade in the memory.
The Beekeeper is a an old man’s masturbatury fantasy :):) so happy you said that before me i haven’t finished it yet but it’s been fitting that description for me so far
Haven’t watched The Needle yet
^ Glad you agree Meg!!! I was worried about getting into another Public Housing argument but at least someone else seems to be on the same wavelength on this one !!!
Greece (The Beekeeper) 0 — Kazakhstan (The Needle) 1
“The Beekeeper is a an old man’s masturbatury fantasy :)”
yeah right.
@Kuxa,I’m sad you didn’t like the film,cause,generally,I appreciate your opinion.
But,I think that you are way too unfair in your criticism of the Beekeeper,which I personally found one of the most personal and moving films of Angelopoulos.In my opinion,in contrast with some of his films that deals more with history and politics,in this one there’s more emotion coming from a “smaller”,simple story of a man.Unlike other of his films,which could be seen as a little “cold”,in this one I really felt for the character.
But,to be honest,my first choise would be The Hunters,the only other Angelopoulos fim,at least from the ones I have seen,that stands close to his masterpiece “The Travelling Players”.“The Beekeeper” is,probably,not even in my top 3-4 of Theo’s films.Despite that,Beekeeper is a trully great film,which proves what a masterful director Angelopoulos was,and what a rich filmography he left behind.
But,to be honest,my first choise would be The Hunters
The Beekeeper is,probably,not even in my top 3-4 of Theo’s films
hang on a sec. not only not the best greek film ever made, but not even the best angelopoulos? (in the submitter’s opinion) this cup is amazing. why are these films being inflicted on us? why don’t i just poke myself in the eye for an hour and shove an atlas up my bum?
is it because the hunters is not available? (or chopped up on the AE release which is what’s making me suspicious about buying that particular angelopoulos boxset)
I ended up feeling better disposed towards Beekeeper by the end, it seems now more an allegorical film (having therefore a higher purpose/intent) the girl a kind of cypher, a vehicle to represent all that confounds and titilates with empty promise in life, forever out of reach regardless of how seemingly close, seemingly available, or how robust one’s efforts to possess, touch, connect. The whole scene at the the broken down old cinema in its surreal, staged evocation clinched this new perspective for me lifting the Beekeeper above the “old man’s masturbatory fantasy” direction it seemed to be heading earlier when she was getting frisky with him in the hotel room. Someone said to me when I ws young and impressionable, Oh god I can’t stand these middle aged directors who make films about young women hot for old men, it’s just pathetic wishful thinking they play out vicariously I never forgot that and am sensitized to be quickly dismissive if a film’s energy seems to have that as its driving force but wasn’t left ultimately with that feeling here.
Anyway my first Angelopoulos, I wasn’t crazy about it (the death scene..mmm) I’ve seen better films on the agony of the loss of youth what gave life meaning etc. I’ve had Landscape in the Mist (but I think something horrible happens to a horse, I’m very animal sensitive) and Travelling Players for ages but who’s got the time to watch everything that deserves to be watched!?
But I really liked The Needle, had not seen anything like it and had not expected to like it which was a nice surprise so afraid am not going to improve Beekeeper’s vote either.
Greece (The Beekeeper) 0 — Kazakhstan (The Needle) 1
I am really surprised with the votes on this match. I mean, comments like old man’s masturbatory fantasy for The Beekeeper are too harsh. What do you call The Needle then, a bad joke? I got nothing out of it.
I ended up feeling better disposed towards Beekeeper by the end, it seems now more an allegorical film (having therefore a higher purpose/intent) the girl a kind of cypher, a vehicle to represent all that confounds and titilates with empty promise in life, forever out of reach regardless of how seemingly close, seemingly available, or how robust one’s efforts to possess, touch, connect.
And still you vote for a vacuous wannabe punk film. What kind of reasoning is this?
Twodeadmagpies,you actually have to ask Risselada about The Hunters…
However,The Beekeeper is still a great film,and possibly more worthwhile than poke yourself in the eye for an hour and shove an atlas up your bum?
About the Greek films ever made,some of them have already been used in previous cups,and the rule for this one is that a film should be presented for the first time here.So,with the majority of great Greek films being anavailable(maybe Dimitris could work on this,but I don’t see him around anymore),the choises are somehow limited.
The Beekeeper is a an old man’s masturbatury fantasy :):) so happy you said that before me i haven’t finished it yet but it’s been fitting that description for me so far
I am observing a bad habit amongst members who seem to post opinions on a film without completing it. This is absolutely shameful. Are you so desperate to post on this forum?
you actually have to ask Risselada about The Hunters…
oh no. wasn’t it greek enough? but you’re definitely right about so many greek films being unavailable, and those that are don’t have subs (i don’t think dim is that inclined to start subtitling thousands of films at the minute – when’s he going to get unmuzzled btw?)….and i’m even still itching to get my hands on a widely renowned koundouros :(
but since i didn’t like the beekeeper that much, i guess it’s only fair that i track down the hunters just to balance things out…though when this cup lets up, and when i can sit on a chair again without squashing zimbabwe…..
@Jake La Motta
I can understand why users would like the Beekeeper like yourself, Rohit and Kenji. It just really wasn’t for me. If I don’t like a film from one of my favourite directors I am often more let down than usual. As was the case here. I remember sitting in bed with the flu and I watched Travelling Players, The Hunters and Alexander the Great back to back lasting like ten hours!! Loved every minute of it :) Then next day I watched the Beekeeper and was very let down. That said a filmmaker who directs over sfive decades and manages to make one lousy film has done well for himself.
@ Riss
What do we need to ask yu about the Hunters? I actually nominated this film to represent Greece. No hard feelings though as I seem to be taking part in 50% of the competition anyaway!!
@Rohit
I don’t feel an old man’s masturbatory tale is very far the truth at all. I have a deep disliking for old heterosexual men who gurn over women in their teens and early twenties. At least Woody Allen has a sense of humour!! Maybe it seems rather harsh, but you yourself don’t hold back your tongue when you dislike a film now do you!!! I wasn’t amazingly in love with the Needle either, BUT at least I found myself enjoying the damn thing which surely is a good sign….
I don’t feel an old man’s masturbatory tale is very far the truth at all.
The reason it’s far from the truth is that the film isn’t only about his carnal desires. It is also about his disillusionment with the present and an attempt to return to the past. I thought the scene where he visits his friend in the hospital and then their trip to the beach are beautiful in those regards. He even visits his ancestral house to try and forget his present. He also tries to revive his relationship with his wife in one of the scenes but fails. One must not paint Mastroianni’s character in this film as a pervert but rather a man who tries desperately to stay away from the lure’s of his mind. In fact, even in the end Mastroianni suffers for not being able to control his feelings.
I have a deep disliking for old heterosexual men who gurn over women in their teens and early twenties. At least Woody Allen has a sense of humour!!
Woody Allen is practically a pedophile in Manhattan because the girl is not even 18. But a sense of humor seems to make it alright for you. Sorry, but this sounds ridiculous.
Maybe it seems rather harsh, but you yourself don’t hold back your tongue when you dislike a film now do you!!!
I don’t hold back my tounge in expressing the good points of a film as well unless I find nothing worth praising(which is rare). Even for the Needle I said it has its moments that are primarily about it’s visual aesthetics. But apart from that the film does barely anything for me.
Risselada
This topic is part of the 2012 MUBI World Cup. If you have not already done so, please read the first post at the topic for an introduction to and rules about this year’s World Cup:
http://mubi.com/topics/2012-mubi-world-cup-introduction-submit-your-list-of-films
Greece
Original title: O Melissokomos
Directed by: Theodoros Angelopoulos
Approximate runtime: 122 min
Submitted by: Jake La Motta
Kazakhstan (Soviet Union)
Original title: Igla
Directed by: Rashid Nugmanov
Approximate runtime: 81 min
Submitted by: Ari, Cat
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The purpose of this topic is to cast votes in the matchup listed above and also to be a forum for discussing the films in the match.
Anyone who has seen both of the films listed above may vote in this match. You must vote for whichever of the two films you personally like better. In order to vote you must post a reply to this topic containing one of the following sequences:
If you are voting for The Beekeeper: “Greece (The Beekeeper) 1 – Kazakhstan (The Needle) 0”
If you are voting for The Needle: “Greece (The Beekeeper) 0 – Kazakhstan (The Needle) 1”
Your vote must contain the names of both films with a “one” after the film you are voting for and a “zero” after the other film. If your vote is not formatted in this way it will not be counted.
Along with your vote you are strongly encouraged to leave additional comments regarding your reactions to the films, your reasons for why you voted the way you did, and responses to other participants’ comments. Being able to have deep discussion about the films and different aspects of them is an important part of finding enjoyment in participating in the World Cup.
This match will end on Sunday, March 25 at 10:00 PM GMT. No votes attempted to be cast after that time will be counted. Shortly after the match ends the votes will be tallied and a winner of the match will be declared. If the films both receive the same number of votes, the match will be considered a tie.
The percentage of votes each film receives in a match will have an effect on whether or not the corresponding country will participate in the final round of the World Cup. Thus even if the film you vote for loses in this match, your vote will still be important.
The results of the matches as well as the schedule for future matches can be found here:
http://mubi.com/lists/2012-mubi-world-cup
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