Nine is based on 8 1/2??? I had no idea.
To answer your first inquiry, I’d say that Marshall is not equipped to tackle Fellini but he’ll never ruin him, that’s absurd. Hopefully, and I would think logically, it will indefinitely reignite that Fellini flame for those who have forgotten or never heard of.
Second, who knows, I’m hoping the latter but suspecting the former.
Third, I’m not worried at all about Daniel Day Lewis playing anything, he’s a fine versatile actor that has time and time again proven himself.
Lastly, I don’t know, I’m sure there’s some Fellini scholars on here that could accurately answer that.
Really, Rocky?
David, I am ALSO very badly wanting to see Nine. I really like Rob Marshall (both Chicago and Annie were stunning), and I think that Daniel Day-Lewis will rock my socks off. If he does not, I will be pissed, because Guido is my favorite film character from any movie ever.
Savvy
Oh. There’s a new Nine. I thought you were talking about the animated apocalyptic one!!!!! :D
oh brother,this is gonna get ugly..
for the record,Fosse’s take on the Cabiria myth is NOT like Marshall’s take on the Chicago stage myth…..and don’t let me hear any Fosse enemies,unless you all think musical died with Busby Berkeley and Jacques Demy is just another copy-cat..sheesh….
sorry,this is a Nine thread,mmmm…if Marshall popularizes 8 1/2,i’ll refuse to accept U.S. musicals have any future after that….
COMMERCIALISM MUST DIE!!!!
As an Italian-American, I find it odd that very few Italians appear in major roles in the new NINE. Also Raul Julia (who I don’t believe was Italian) played the role on Broadway when I saw it there back in the 1980s.
I don’t want to get on a high-horse about this ethnic representation, but the play took all of the subtlety of Fellini’s film and threw it out the window. One song in particular, “I’m Italian,” portrays my heritage as a state of perpetually horniness. I assume that this stereotypical prejudice (or “prejudice lite”) will be in the film version too.
>>Will Marshall merely make a perfunctory movie version of the Broadway musical or aim to make a musical version of the Fellini film?<<
To Marshall’s credit he attempted to retranslate Chicago into cinematic terms, he didn’t just film the play. Whether or not you like what he did is another matter. (And how much credit needs to go to Bill Condon’s screenplay is also another matter.)
Dr. Tomasulo: I’m not Italian myself, so maybe I have no right voicing my opinion on your heritage… But I respectfully disagree with you about the meaning of the song “Be Italian.” I think the song, sung by the Seraghina character, implores young Guido to go through life with gusto. “Live today as if it may become your last!” Yes, that includes sexually, too, as Seraghina is a prostitute. A bawdy street prostitute at that. I think it’s a life-affirming song about finding what makes you happy and pursuing it. And because of Fellini’s constant struggle with morality and the church, this philosophy leads to consequences for young Guido. I think Guido’s “perpetual horniness,” as you put it, is significant to the story and was created by Fellini himself, not the Broadway musical. I think at least in that respect, the musical was quite faithful to the source material.
David: I don’t entirely disagree with what you say. And thanks for correcting me on the title of the song; it’s “BE Italian!”
I think that the idea in the film (there’s no actual song in the movie) is that sexuality is an important part of life, especially for young Guido, who has lived a repressed childhood under the Catholic Church and fascism. This is conveyed cinematically when Seraghina lifts the young boy into the air, the camera tilting up, and we suddenly cut to a ground-level view of the priests approaching to put a stop to Guido’s “brief encounter” on the beach. (By the way, this “bringing him down to earth” motif mirrors the opening sequence during which the adult Guido is pulled down from the clouds toward a beach by his producer.) That said, both the childhood experience and the adult Guido’s philandering ways are handled in a wonderfully subtle, mostly visual, way in the film. I agree that Fellini put all that in the original movie.
The song from the play NINE, however, still seems like a much cruder salute to sexuality to me. Whereas Fellini did not necessarily ascribe the character’s sexual urges to his ethnicity (James Joyce dealt with it in THE PORTRAIT OF THE ARTIST AS A YOUNG MAN, and many other authors and filmmakers have dealt with that same theme of accepting one’s sexuality in the face of a repressive church or society), the song in the play emphasizes that THAT’S how to “be Italian.” Yes, it means to be life-affirming but it also suggests to me (and maybe I’m particularly defensive because of my heritage) that being lascivious and “horny” is a particularly ITALIAN trait, not a universal rite of passage. Otherwise, why not call the song, “Be a man!” or “Be sensual!” or “Live Life with Gusto!” “Enjoy your Body!” or some such. Are Italians more sensual than other nationalities?
sorry, double post…
Frank: The Latin lover is a century’s old myth and cliché, true, however it was one that Fellini himself seemed rather comfortable with and perpetuated in, well, gee, ALL of his films. I think Fellini’s 8 ½ (like many of his movies) is about sex and art and what it means to be a modern Italian man. The Italian-ness is vital to both the film’s sensuality and context, I think. I disagree that Fellini was subtle about the sexuality in 8 ½, I think it’s more than thematic, it’s pretty much the plot. And the film itself seems to shrug and say, Yes, but that’s what it means to be Italian. …But maybe that’s just how I see it.
I, too, love the opening sequence you mentioned. I just compared it to the opening of La Dolce Vita on another thread. They share a lot of imagery, but with a statue of Christ flying across Rome in La Dolce Vita instead of the Fellini alter-ego (Guido) in 8 ½ . It’s an interesting comparison. I haven’t read much film criticism (I was an English major, and film theory was kind of poo-pooed. unfortunately), but I’m sure there’s a lot written comparing the two.
I agree that it would have been great to use more Italian and/or Italian-American actors in major roles in the film. Is Sophia Loren the only one? I think she may be. Who would you have liked to see in it, Doctor?
David: It may because of my ethnic background but I do not see Fellini saying that Guido is the way he is simply because he’s Italian. At least it’s not stated directly as such. And I think our differences are only a matter of degree, but useful to discuss nonetheless. Certainly, Guido is a Latin lover type and Mastroianni played that type in many films. And certainly the film takes place in Italia. The reason I think the film is more subtle than the play, NINE, is that in 8 1/2, there are no OVERT references to Guido’s nationality being the cause of his “sex addiction,” especially not in the dialogue. Thus, the film character can be read as an EveryMan, or an EveryArtist, even though he hangs out in Roman cafes and has Italian relatives.
I don’t want to make a DIRECT comparison, but take Woody Allen’s persona. One could see him as a neurotic intellectual Jewish New Yorker and one would be right to see those localized elements in the characters he plays. Yet, to the extent that the character’s Judaism (or birthplace or education) CAUSES his neuroses is the extent to which the character is reduced to an ethnic stereotype. And to the extent that we see ALL of these factors (as well as the Zeitgeist, his social class, and many other determinants) as forming a persona that speaks to everyone (or almost everyone) is the extent to which that nebbische character transcends “ethnic profiling.” Thus, any male who’s had trouble with women or inadequate or smarter than other men can “relate” to his character.
I see that in 8 1/2s Guido. He’s a complex man-artist-son-spouse-friend-business associate-apostate-etc., not just AN ITALIAN.
On the other hand, the play (and probably the forthcoming movie) was explicit in the song lyrics that Guido sexuality derives (almost exclusively) from his national identity. And that subtle difference, at least as I perceive there to be one, makes NINE somewhat offensive. But don’t get me wrong; I’m not a radical or professional Italian. I see it as “prejudice lite” (a little like THE SOPRANOS). After all, what group DOESN’T want to be perceived as sexy, life-affirming, full of gusto, etc.? Answer: Puritans.
As far as actors of at least some Italian heritage who could play roles in NINE, instead of the ones chosen, here’s a list below. (I don’t know how well all of them can sing or dance, but that didn’t stop Rob Marshall from casting CHICAGO!) Of course, Hollywood could still cast Natalie Wood as a Puerto Rican and D. W. Griffith used mainly white folks (in black face) to play the “negroes” in THE BIRTH OF A NATION (1915).
double post again!
To Dimitri: Amen!
Being a first-generation Italian-Canadian, I agree with Frank T. about the predominant American cast pretending to be Italian as simply dumb and a blatant money grab for Hollywood’s customers, but the reality is that few or any Italian actors would have wanted to be part of this Rob Marshall production. To be fair, I haven’t seen the musical and I am sure Raoul Julia’s performances were excellent in the 80’s. The problem is that they are merely cashing in on the timing of the Broadway success, and the Hollywood template of throwing a huge ensemble cast into this production, as impressive as it may be, will fall flat because it is postmodern, formulaic reinvention of Fellini’s most personal work, and one of cinema’s best. A musical can only be a musical.
I read once in an interview with Fellini that he spoke of Italy’s “twin castrating forces” as being both fascism and religion, and in 8 1/2 it was dealt with in complete vulnerability and candor while being subtle. I haven’t heard the song in question “Be Italian”, (which was written by American composer Maury Yeston, not the playwright Mario Fratti who originally wrote Nine) and I think the argument is irrelevant about Italians or Fellini being ‘overly sexed’—the point was that he mocked censorship on all levels while admitting his own personal passions and distortions of women. Fellini gave cinema a rare, honest gift with 8 1/2, and that has been appropriated—like alot of things in our culture—into a cheesy, extroverted romp with no meaning or respect for the original. I deeply admire Daniel Day Lewis but I think he stretched himself way beyond his capabilities here if he honestly believed he was going to reinvent Mastroianni, and as for Rob Marshall he can rot in a giant vat of bubbling acid for all I care, along with Weinstein and Fratti.
I think Weinstein should have played Saraghina!
Che schifezza!
Thanks, John V., for agreeing with me about the representation of Italians in NINE.
You add additional force to my argument with your facts about the writing of the “Be Italian” song and your quotes from Fellini. Finally, I laughed out loud over your suggestion that Harvey Weinstein play Seraghina! (Although I’ve put on a few extra pounds in recent years, that’s one “fat joke” I can appreciate.)
Most of us haven’t seen NINE yet. I checked “rotten tomatoes” today, though, and was completely deflated by the 19 reviews that showed up. I don’t think I’ll go see it; I love 8 1/2 too much and I generally despise the musical genre (either on stage or celluloid).
“I may be committing cinephile sacrilege by admitting this, but I’m dying to see the movie musical NINE. "
I just threw up a bit in my mouth. Ugh.
Daniel Day-Lewis is probably better than the film. I have never cared for Rob Marshall and I thought Chicago was just too showy more than anything else. Perhaps that is why musicals were created though.
I just…the idea of 8 1/2 … 8 1/2! … being a musical, being a mainstream musical, being an oscar best picture contender, that’s just weird. Still, seriously, how can you not be curious? I wasn’t even a fan of 8 1/2 – there was too much going on, i got hopelessly lost – but it’s the most unlikely mainstream musical I’ve ever heard of.
seeing it only for sophia loren
I remember watching 8 1/2 and I thought to myself…. this is okay, but it needs some Fergie. Little did I know someone, somewhere will answer my prayers.
I would shoot myself in the head before going to see Nine after viewing several trailers.
It’s …horrible. 8 1/2 is a Masterpiece.
Nine was already a musical on broadway before the film
the film is a drama of that musical
it should not have to be compared to 8 1/2
The root source material is still Fellini’s film, Den.
I went to see NINE today and it was a big disappointment. Well, poor choice of a word, it was flat out bad; I never really expected anything good to come from it. It is an insult to Fellini’s work, even if it was not based precisely on 8 ½, that is no excuse for how bad it was. I don’t even think I hated it just because I hate musicals. I suppose it was an honor for Day-Lewis to play Mastroianni, but while watching this I felt as if Day-Lewis himself did not get a chance to read the script until after he had signed to be in this insult-of-a-film.
I don’t have a problem with the cast not being Italian, in the end they are actors playing Italian roles. This is no historical depiction of events passed; it is only a movie. However, I never felt any of the characters; they were big stars on the screen that were there for no other purpose then to be showcased because of their names. Just that scene toward the end with all of them walking into the huge stage-structure thing; I hate the idea of just showing off the cast, and specially just having Sophia Loren right in the center, what was that if not ranking the stars for how much they each have accomplished?
I have not seen 8 ½ in over two years but I will make it my homework to watch it again so I can compose a much more thorough criticism of this little musical farce.
I can’t really comment on Nine as a version of 8½ as it’s about 40 years since I last saw the Fellini film, but as a great admirer of the stage musical – having seen the original Broadway production, with Raul Julia’s brilliant performance and Tommy Tune’s incredible staging, and having had a recording of the score for years – I found the film to be something of a travesty of the show, at least from a musical point of view, with the score cut to shreds. In particular, the rather flat ending of the film was no match for the very moving last twenty minutes or so of the show, which had three or four great songs, one after the other, all of which were cut from the film, including the title song, for God’s sake! (What on earth was the title Nine supposed to mean in the context of the film?)
In general, I thought the dramatic scenes worked better than the musical ones, with some excellent performances and some nice 60s Italian atmosphere. The only two songs I thought worked really well were the ones which were staged relatively simply: Unusual Way, sung by Nicole Kidman, and My Husband Makes Movies, beautifully performed by Marion Cotillard. The other songs all seemed to be used as excuses for over-the-top production numbers, with lumpish choreography, flashy costumes, and very clumsy camera movements and editing.
What a wasted opportunity.
Just wanted to throw this out there. Remember the scene in “Nights of Cabiria” where she and her girlfriends go to see the Madonna? I could be wrong, but there is an extra in that scene that looks EXACTLY like Talia Shire. Seriously. You can see her right after the Father tells everyone to kneel down. I swear that’s her.
David Koteles
I may be committing cinephile sacrilege by admitting this, but I’m dying to see the movie musical NINE. I even watched 8 ½ again last night to get ready for it. What are people’s thoughts on this?
- Will Rob Marshall ruin Fellini or make him more popular to the masses? (I think Marshall did a really nice job with Chicago; even if you hate musicals, you’ve got to admit it was a smart, well directed film.)Will Marshall merely make a perfunctory movie version of the Broadway musical or aim to make a musical version of the Fellini film?-
- Is anyone else worried about Daniel Day Lewis playing Guido?I know the Broadway musical had Fellini’s blessings, but does anyone know if he saw it and liked it? And how did he feel about Sweet Charity?-