Essential Art House Volume 1? I have that box set. :P
I haven’t seen their reproduction of The Grand Illusion yet (good movie).
Translations are very tricky. Think of all the books that you have read that have different translations. For instance you could take an exact translation of say a poem but it would not have the same lyricism of the original. So, there are other translators who probably take their craft and take the other language (say English) into consideration. They may or may not have to take into consideration the vernacular of a current era or its culture. To say that something is 8 miles versus 12 km shows that the translator (obviously) intends that the text is a guide for spatial understanding not exactitude. Say an audience member is ingrained in the standard system: 8 miles will trigger a faster recall then 12 km. This might be a pathetic excuse but there are so many words from subtitles that maybe the intent of the translator was trying to make sure that the audience will have an even flow of the text instead of noticing the text instead of the film itself.
Here is an example of Bibles: I hope it doesn’t upset any sensitivity of people on the forum. I’m just trying to make a point about people’s relationship to translations. For instance, if you are Christian, they have different translations of the Bible. The New American Bible & King James comes to mind. I even have a Youth Bible which also is yet another translation. The Bible used to be translated from Hebrew and Greek to Latin. There are still Latin bibles and some Roman Catholics continue to worship in Latin because they feel that it is an accurate translation of the Bible and that its ceremonies and rites express the faith better than the vernacular. Greek Orthodox Christians utilize Koine Greek for their translations and service. Then there is also Russian Orthodox Christians who well follow their faith via their language.
Think of all the ridiculous or necessary (depending on your view on the matter) holy wars and councils met over centuries over translations! Go to any bookstore and pick up different versions of Dante and see how translations try to express their original author’s intent or text. Cultural references might sound absurd. I don’t know if I’m for or against them. That might be taking too much liberty in a given translation.
Why do they think it might be a good idea? Because they probably weigh all of these issues you have just brought up and they might think… Well, it’s the fruits of this translation that people will understand and enjoy the movie. Of course something is lost in the process.
“Anyone who will like a film more because they changed the cultural references probably isn’t going to be that interested in foreign films anyway.” Possibly. The distributors also have a different agenda then maybe religious texts. They want to move units. How translations are handled can definitely be political in the sense that you have to think about the audience and the translation will reflect what the translator and distributor etc thinks of its audience and what they want the audience to think.
Films may not be as a respected medium as say translations of books or religious texts. And movies may suffer because of this.
Metrics of measuring space are as arbitrary as what sounds and letters we ascribe to a word; there’s no more arrogance in altering them to suit the country you’re screening a film in then there is altering the film to the point that those who don’t speak the native language of the filmmaker can still comprehend the words being said.
Well, here in Brazil and probably in the rest of the so called “foreing countries” milles are still miles, they don’t turn miles into kilometers, just like all the other things, whoever doesn’t the language of the film sometimes doesn’t get some language jokes.
And do they seriously americanize cultural references?
Being from the UK and having moved to the US a few years ago, this is something that grates on me frequently. My US and UK copies of La Haine have radically different subtitles, most noticably, and bizarrely, the reference to Asterix and Oberlix being changed to Snoopy in the US version. You can hear them say Asterix!!! The current A Bout de Souffle reissue has some strange choices too; I always thought Michel calls Patricia a louse, but apparently she makes him want to puke now.
People translate religious texts for different purposes than they translate movies for. When you’re translating a religious text, your goal is to make it as easily understandable as possible to speakers of the language. When you’re translating a movie, I think your goal should be to preserve the content of the original as closely as possible.
I can’t speak a lot for changing cultural references in movies, but I know they do it a whole lot for anime and video games. For the original Persona they even changed the skin color of the characters.
What I’ve always found extremely puzzling is how they translate American films like Do the Right Thing into other languages…Not just that but all American films that are very heavy on slang…Like they’re not only speaking English but their own sub version of English.
How do you translate “Put some extra Mootzerella on that motha fucka & shit!” into Japanese? I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be anywhere near as funny as it is in English.
@jirin: “For the original Persona they even changed the skin color of the characters.”
I haven’t seen Persona. ?? How did they manage that and why?
I think you’re being too picky. I personally do fr/en translations, and what people generally want is to understand what is going on. In La Haine (i.e. Hate) for example, the entire movie is about the Parisian suburbs and more specifically Seine-Saint-Denis (93). That, in itself, presents a problem for translators. The entire premice of the movie is based on a really specific sub-culture with its own references that, in all probability, most people reading the subtitles won’t ever even notice or pick up on. Asterix and Obelix isn’t the only thing they changed. So yes, translators generally try to make the movie more accessible. Personally, I support this form of translation. If you would understand all the cultural references in the picture, ou probabally wouldn’t need subtitles!
anonymouse : agreed.
My favorite is Kiki’s Delivery Service with it’s rather pathetic dub-titles. A woman holds up a jar at one point, which clearly says “Coffee” on the side (in English). She says to Kiki “Coffee?” in Japanese, not exactly the same pronunciation, but very, very close.
The subtitles say “How about some hot chocolate?”
!!???!
Miles and kilometers is really annoying. Most of the world acknowledge the existence of both. Another pet hate of mine (although do doubt defensible in some people’s opinion) is translating money. Story of Qiu Ju “That’s $20”. This means absolutely nothing to me. I don’t use dollars, I do however know of at least 3 or 4 countries which use a currency called dollars, all of which have a different value. Can’t you just translate what people say?!
I can only understand the ‘dollars’ reference in Qiu Ju through comparison throughout the film. How much chillies are worth and so on. By that point you may as well have given the original in Chinese money.
With money, they’ll generally translate to whatever currency is used in the largest market-area (so for English, the US). It’s the same reason they translate from metric to standard and sometimes to imperial for UK distribution. It’s because, quite frankly, not everyone knows that 1 USD= 85JPY, 1.3EUR, 1,59 GBP and 1 stone= 14lbs and that 1m= 3ft. etc. It helps to put things in perspective. If it’s a movie about Renaissance Italy however, they’ll keep the original translation of “florins” or “sesterces” or whatever according to the time period. Again, translations are never (ever) direct. The whole idea is to immerse you in the movie by making it immediately appealing.
…also, you should all note that translations are not exclusively “americanised.” When something is translated into French or German or even made for distribution in the UK only, the translator will use local measurements and cultural regerences etc.
The Bible used to be translated from Hebrew and Greek to Latin. There are still Latin bibles and some Roman Catholics continue to worship in Latin because they feel that it is an accurate translation of the Bible and that its ceremonies and rites express the faith better than the vernacular.
I actually read Latin and Ancient Greek, and I can tell you the translations are sometimes drastically different. Poetry is obviously the hardest to translate (which is why the Parnassiens for example just translated into French prose) but the Bible for example is full of stuff noone understands anymore. The Greek is original for most of the New Testament, but was very well translated to Latin later on (the two laguages translate roughly like English/ French. The words are often very different, but they share much of the same structure and form). King James is good enough, but the modern English translations can sometimes be really, really “dumbed down” so to speak. I don’t want to upset any religious people, but the Roman Catholic Church was essentially just a direct conversion from classical Roman religion. Christianity was just placed on top of the older structure and traditions (which explains why it spread so quickly around the 5th century) so much of the latin text is full of references and modalities of latin religion… which are in large part absent from modern translations. Even just because of latin gramatical structure, it’s often hard to tell exactly who is doing what. Much is based on context. Even really obvious stuff like “fiat lux” is hard to really translate as “and there was light” or “et la lumiere fut.” There are even quite large differences in biblical translations between French and English which could easily change interpretation, like Moses and the burning bush. “Je suis celui qui sera” (I am the one [or who, or him who or some such] who will be) isn’t really “I am that I am.” Both the Latin and Greek have slightly different twists on it, too. The original Hebrew is more like “I shall-be that (which) I shall-be.” You can see the difference. Seeing as though this is the only time in the Bible where God actually describes himself, it’s rather important to grasp it (or not, as you can’t understand God… which explains why it’s so cryptic).
Translation, even when performed by highly qualified translators, is always a matter of approximate meanings. Subtitling is, as computer programmers say, a quick-and-dirty process.
“Hot chocolate” is not an approximation of “coffee”. It’s simply ‘children don’t drink coffee in America so lets change it in case they discover there are cultures outside of their own’.
I mean, the video game Persona, not the movie. Sorry, should have been more specific on a movie board, even though I mentioned it in a paragraph about video games.
@Anonymouse
I disagree about that. If I’m watching a movie that takes place in Paris, it should be about Paris culture. If it takes place in Berlin, it should be about Berlin culture. If I don’t understand a reference, I can hit pause and load up Wikipedia.
If that will limit the local appeal, fine. Make two sets of subtitles available. One where they change the cultural references and one where they keep them authentic.
Yes, sanjuro, in that instance you’re talking about a Disneyfication, not a translation.
I think that’s an interesting thing to discuss… should translation be faithfull to the speaches or should it make it easier for different cultures to get the point of what’s being said?
Cause if you think well… what does it change from miles to kilometer or w/e other measure? Absolutely nothing.
Also, making it easier may even make some more people interested in foreing movies…
But, let’s agree that there must be a limit, like the coffee/chocolate example.
In the other hand, somehow it’s against the author’s right to change the text (a right that legally he/she doesn’t have)
p.s.: Seriously… stopping the movie to search on wikipedia?
One thing I find interesting is watching a dubbed movie with the subtitles on and seeing the different takes on the same scene. Each form has some physical limitations that effect the final product. With dubbing they often try to match the actor’s mouth movements when choosing words and length of sentences, and in subtitling they have to pay attention to the available screenspace and amount of time the actors speak. I did closed captioning for awhile, and I often had to change English words to similar ones due to space and time limitations, so trying to deal with translating would only had another hurdle to the process. People seem to think subtitles are definitively better, and that is often the case, but there are times when the dubbing actually captures more of the meaning and especially the tone of an exchange better than subs do. With live action films the voice/actor match is always a problem, which better word choice may not make up for, but with anime, that isn’t always the case. Ghost in the Shell seemed better dubbed than subbed for example.
The problem with dubbing is that it changes the aesthetic…
For example, imagine a italian movie, with an italian guy speaking with all that vigor and gestures and that super strong italian accent dubbed in that cute and delicated french.
As a practical matter, for many films it would be difficult if not impossible to subtitle verbatim, because the time it takes for the words to appear on the screen and for the viewer to read and understand them would end up being incrementally longer than it takes for the actors to speak them, so the viewer would be stuck slightly behind the action of the film.
Jirin, I know exactly what you are referring to.
The onscreen character will speak an idiomatic phrase from his language…. but then it’s up to the translators to find an appropriate, equivalent phrase in English. Sometimes the translation is spot-on…. other times it’s more approximated, because a literal translation would sound odd or stilted.
The translators also have to take into account:
1). The degree of formality of the character’s setting… thus, the translation will ideally sound informal, or possibly even slangy, as well.
2). The character’s age and sex. The translation needs to sound (to American sensibilities) like something a person of that age and gender would say. Otherwise, the net effect could be risible and interrupt the viewer’s concentration and suspension of disbelief… A teenager needs to sound like a teenager in any language….
3). The level of cultural awareness of the viewer. In THROUGH A GLASS, DARKLY, Max von Sydow produces a bottle of brandy which he names specifically onscreen. The other characters understand what he is referring to. But perhaps a modern, non-Swedish audience mightn’t recognize the name of the brandy… so the subtitles just say, “Do you want some brandy?”
There was that great Argentine movie from the 80’s about a woman embroiled in political violence, remember it? She offers her friend some Rompope, a very specific Argentine sweet creamy liqueur. An American audience mightn’t recognize it, so the subtitles just say, “Do you want some eggnog?”
Recently, in Hirokazu Kore-eda’s STILL WALKING, the mother says, “Yes, he’s like that comedian on TV.” Then she names the comedian. A Japanese audience will recognize the comedian’s name….. but it is quite possible that most Americans wouldn’t recognize the name…. So the subtitles do not mention it.
Subtitlists can’t afford to slow down the viewer’s involvement in a film…..to explain cultural references. [That said, the subtitles are all over the place trying to make sense and clue in the non-French reader of the hilarious patois in BIENVENUE CHEZ LES CH’TIS.]
Of course, in the 1940’s and 50’s, American subtitlists would censor as well. A character in a film will say “Va te faire foutre” or “merde”……. and the subtitle would read “Get lost!” and “Damn it!” … or sometimes no subtitle would be offered at all for the exclamation. Fortunately, those days are past, and we get unexpurgated translations….
(-:
So many European and Asian movies have been obviously translated by British subtitlists. It’s very telling to see a Fellini film in which the subtitles read, “Right— now clear off, you lot!”
Something an American would never say. (-:
“Recently, in Hirokazu Kore-eda’s STILL WALKING, the mother says, “Yes, he’s like that comedian on TV.” Then she names the comedian. A Japanese audience will recognize the comedian’s name….. but it is quite possible that most Americans wouldn’t recognize the name…. So the subtitles do not mention it.”
I think in those cases it’s totally unecessary to not mention it. I mean, the person just said it’s a comedian… you don’t need to know more about it than that it’s a comedian… the same works for the rompope and for the brandy…
For example, here in Brazil there’s no peanut butter, still the translation keep the peanut butter… and there’s absolutelly no problem on it, cause it doesn’t matter what it is exactly, it just matters that it’s there and that it is to eat…
“I’m watching the Essential Art House version of The Grand Illusion, and I noticed this. A German character clearly said ‘Twelve kilometers’, and the subtitle said ‘Eight miles’.”
It’s not just the Americans! Germans do the same thing when they dub films. (suddenly people in NY pay in Marks and even celebrity names are changed to people that are more known in Germany – example: On the Simpsons when Bart mentions “Billy Crystal” they changed it to “Sharon Stone” in the German dub of that episode, sometimes German celebs take the place)
Seems the only way a person can watch a film these days is to learn several languages.
Greeks are the worst at subtitling films, the mistakes can be devastatingly big.
example: In “Berlin Alexanderplatz” Biberkopf mentions the word “Lude” – slang for pimp – The Greek subtitles translate it as “Jew” (ok, the German word Jude (jew) is similar sounding to Lude and it’s one long movie to translate – still a HUGE mistake)
I just thought of another example: in Two and a Half Men there’s an episode where they make a joke about T.G.I. Fridays decoration, when I watched it I didn’t know T.G.I. Fridays, there are only a few here, but the joke was totally comprehensible cause I could easily deduce how eccentric is this estabilishment’s decoration.
Also, take Woody Allen’s Manhattan for example, in that movie Woodie quotes a lot of people that a person without much culture would never comprehend, such as: “When it’s about women I deserve the August Strindberg Award”. How can August Strindberg be translated? It’s too specific…
Jirin
I’m watching the Essential Art House version of The Grand Illusion, and I noticed this. A German character clearly said ‘Twelve kilometers’, and the subtitle said ‘Eight miles’.
Okay, Americans may not use kilometers every day, but we know perfectly well what they are. We know about how long they are. There’s absolutely no need for this conversion. How common is this sort of thing in translations? Does criterion do it a lot? If they’re doing unit of measure conversions for us, what else are they doing? Are they replacing cultural references from other countries with cultural references from the US (Like they do for anime and Japanese video games)? Why do they think this is a good idea? Anyone who will like a film more because they changed the cultural references probably isn’t going to be that interested in foreign films anyway.