Oh yes, Peter it’s not possible we have actual opinions and have a reasoning for why we feel Dimitris shouldn’t have been muzzled. We have to just be “proxies” for him (whatever that actually means).
Never mind the fact that I disputed what you said without actually saying how I feel about Dimitris when he goes over the line. Never mind the fact that I was the person that probably moderated him more than anyone else on this site when I was a moderator. Never mind the fact that I actually know what I’m talking about and you’re sitting in total darkness on the issue. I’m just a proxy for Dimitris; an automaton that can’t think for myself.
That’s the only possible explanation for someone question the great opinion of Mr. Peter Stuyvesant.
Every post of yours just gets more and more disgusting.
Listen to yourselves. I’m done with this thread.
Dushane, all due respect, they didn’t “violate” their rules. They simply added one that goes: don’t tell us to fuck off when we’re trying to work with you. Unless you know something I don’t, that seems entirely fair to me. What should they have done, simply ignore their concerns with him and let him do whatever he wants?
That seemed like a fine way of doing things for over a year on this site. They had absolutely no problem with that plan of action UNTIL Dimitris insulted them. This is what I’ve been saying for days at a time. This must be the eighth time I’ve repeated myself.
Admin. has to accept the fact that moderation doesn’t curb behaviour. Neither does muzzling. Moderation should be used to abate flame wars and muzzling when a comment is too offensive to allow. Nothing Dimitris did in the last week on site was different from what he did on his first week. Nothing he said in the last week was worse than anything he said in his first week.
So if Dimitris’ actions didn’t change what did? Admin.‘s strategy did. And that strategy is what I’m opposing. It’s a thin-skinned, “we can’t be challenged” strategy that is just childish and ridiculous.
I harbor no ill will towards those that disagree with me (if their able to do it with any intelligent thought in their disagreement). Mike, both Joshes, Law, and Drew… these are people I respect more than almost any others on this site. Adam Cook is another person I hold in the highest of regards (in terms of semi-anonymous relationships on the internet, anyway). But I just feel they’re defending something I can’t.
DuShane—this from Adam Cook yesterday on the FD! thread:
It doesn’t seem fair to keep anyone in the dark when this situation is being followed with fervent interest by the community. I just want to provide an update and reiterate/clarify certain points. I’d like this to be my final word, but this thread doesn’t seem likely to disappear quite yet.
We’ve been more than reasonable with Dimitris, and have been meeting him 99% of the way, but he won’t budge. As mentioned, we hadn’t even made the decision to muzzle him, on the contrary we had decided to issue a more serious warning (BTW, the word “warning” has been thrown around a little too liberally in this thread, while we’ve had issues with Dimitris in the past, formal warnings, to my knowledge, weren’t as numerous as expressed) but he reacted by disregarding our plea and saying he’d rather be muzzled. I think the team here really considered this a temporary but necessary measure. However, having personally reached out to Dimitris since, that no longer seems to be the case. It is clear he is even unwilling to communicate with us. If that wasn’t enough, the current status of his profile kind of seals the deal. This really saddens me, and I’m sorry to lose one of our most passionate users. Thankfully, he has not abandoned the site, and will continue to participate in the limited capacity he can (this of course is assuming he will remove offensive remarks from his profile).
A further sadness comes from the news that another valuable user, Blue K, plans to leave. I must admit this decision confuses me somewhat. I can’t really say we’ve handled this situation incorrectly, and if there is some ill will towards those that complained about Dimitris, it must come from a distorted perception of these events. I’ve received numerous complaints about Dimitris, this we know, but let it also be known that some of these complaints we’re very serious, and that Dimitris really had, on occasion, crossed the line he otherwise successfully walked. Those are the complaints that we took special note of, and led us to confront Dimitris.
No one has won out over this incident, and I’m sorry it has unfolded in the manner it has. I’m also sorry that many of you have found our forum rules and standards unclear. Forum changes are in the works that will hopefully improve this understanding and the quality of our site.
For now, I offer Dimitris a reluctant farewell (but never say never) and offer Blue K an impassioned request to reconsider his decision. The goal here at MUBI, and from me personally, is to make sure this is the greatest destination for a cinephile on the web. We can’t always do it alone, and we need to work together as a community to ensure a future of growth and improvement."
I guess I’m one of the few that finds this thing very funny. Ohhh, poor, poor little Dimitris. How we miss him soooo. If people would only stop and think about this for a minute you might just come to the realization that this is ridiculous. People are acting like they’ve had a death in the family. Good god, what do you do when tragedy really does strike home? What I’d like to say right now to all of the bellyaching Dimitirs fans, I’m positive I’d get moderated for, so I will use some common sense and moderate myself. Something he should have done. Now can we forget about him. This is just so bizarre.
More obfuscation. It’s the exact thing I’m talking about.
If you were told, “you haven’t done anything different from what you were doing, but some very thin-skinned people took offense to what you’re saying so we’re going to have to take action.” What would you do? I wouldn’t budge either. Dimitris didn’t do anything different; why should he be punished for not changing at all? Why should he be punished for something that wasn’t a problem months ago? Why should he feel the need to change just because the new users on this site can’t take criticism (deserved or not)?
It doesn’t matter how accommodating you are when your expectations are totally unreasonable.
Admin. had no problem when Dimitris did the exact same thing months ago. It wasn’t an issue. But now it is. Why? It’s absurd.
“People are acting like they’ve had a death in the family. Good god, what do you do when tragedy really does strike home?”
I’m tired of people assuming they know my exact mental state based on what I write on an internet forum. You don’t know me, don’t assume you do. This is a site for opinions, I’m voicing mine. If you dislike that… tough. Grow thicker skin, or ignore me.
Well, I think that’s ridiculous, but I surrender, dear ;)
Look, I feel like I’m totally in the middle on this and I don’t want to get into it with my buddies. Everyone knows how I feel and I’m completely up front about that. Dimitris knows I think he pushed it too far, and K knows I think him leaving would be a weak move.
Now you know I disagree with you about the Admin’s reaction, given what happened, and as far as I know we’re all still cool.
I don’t know how anyone can read Adam Cook’s message and get “more obfuscation” out of it. Like I said about the “mubi” uproar, some people love the feeling of righteous indignation.
Let us not forget the somber words of Pastor Niemöller:
THEY CAME FIRST for the Communists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist.
THEN THEY CAME for the trade unionists,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist.
THEN THEY CAME for the Jews,
and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew.
THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
I think that Admin. is getting a raw deal in your statement, Col. Dax. It certainly hasn’t been easy for them to evaluate the recent complaints, and instead of reacting and muzzling him, they nevertheless tried to give a special leeway and sort things out with him which Dimitris wasn’t up to. One could argue that people wasn’t seriously hurt by Dimitris’ remarks, but Admin. couldn’t know that and tried to find a solution to restore peace which didn’t work out, especially since a more consequent course of action against those who offended Dimitris failed to appear. I don’t see “challenging one’s authority” as the mayor issue in this context, since Admin. felt there had been created an imbalance on the forum since complaints summened. The decision to solve the problem through muzzling might have been either right or wrong, and apparantly it wasn’t the best decision, but what matters now is definitely not to find proof of guilt. We should work together (with the staff) in order to reintegrate a Dimitris who is willed to compromise. In case that Dimitris has no interest to improve his current situation, we should let him go, but a point has been reached at which it can no longer be continued as such, and it begins to annoy me that valuable site members are leaving because of this unnecessary conflict.
Look I’m not saying Dimitris was perfect. Nor am I saying I agreed with him all the time. Nor am I saying he didn’t deserve every moderation, or warning he got. Hell, I’m not even saying he didn’t deserve to be muzzled.
What I’m saying is:
For muzzling to be an effective tool on this, or any other site, and not just something Admin. uses to shut up people that disagree with them they have two choices when using it; either they can use it at the expressed point (at someone’s third warning) in which they say they’re going to use it, or they can use it when someone’s posts on the forum are just unacceptable.
Muzzling is an incredibly powerful thing on this site so when it’s used it should be only in the most severe cases (I know this because I was told this almost verbatim when it was originally instituted). I remember after the first person I muzzled I got e-mails and a full days worth of headaches because it wasn’t a troll. When it was originally used it was only for trolls (the porn spamming kind, too). That’s it. Admin. felt all other disagreements could be handled without using this tool. Now, I see this used as just a way to make a point to a disagreeable member of this site and I can’t accept that. It’s totally unreasonable and a dangerous precedent.
But I’m also done. Until I see something where Admin. is addressing these specific concerns I’m done. I’ll just assume they’re ignoring dissent and will continue to plod along doing whatever they choose to despite what it may entail for the future. If it’s a raw deal for them, then so be it. It’s not like they haven’t given their fair share of raw deals to many people on this site before.
I have to agree with Josh D. on this and his most recent post here sums up how I feel about muzzling. I fear that a slippery slope has just been well greased. Who will be next and for what?
On a more pressing matter I have to go play softball with a hangover.
Yes, “Who will be next?”
This whole situation is really sad. Great users, who have given us their passion and knowledge, now are leaving this site.
Why don’t we users move ourselves to another platform like youtube or wikispaces or something, and finally get a true collective construction, forums (fora), cups, discussion and freedom of speech???
We, the users, are the site
I remember when this place wasn’t so Internet Serious with this stuff. This site is definitely a wealth of info on films I’ve never heard of and a great, if not the best, place on the internet to talk about important films (as opposed to mainstream stuff like Toy Story 3).
However, I really don’t care that these people are gone. They didn’t die. Can’t you still contact them? Just talk to them through email or something? I don’t get the drama! One guy was banned, one or two other guys left because of it. Oh well. Yes, we won’t get their valuable insight anymore, and the forums will suffer. But I mean, OK. Even though I don’t really have a life right now, if I logged on to mubi.com tomorrow and the site had closed down, my reaction would be “Oh well” and I’d go for a walk outside or something.
In reaction to Jesse’s original post, I agree about the screaming and how it gets us nowhere, and I also lose my cool and get frustrated and learn etc. But, I never felt like communities or groups of people really achieved things bonded together. I think this search for personal truths and becoming well-rounded people is something a lot of smart and well-meaning people share. But I feel like it’s very very lonely too, I feel it must be isolated. I feel like you, me, or anyone else looking for these truths is alone, and will be alone, even in a place like this. And I mean very isolated from each other, not alone as in the minority. Communities and groups fall apart, change directions, are ultimately traps. All of us are on very different journeys with the same goal in mind.
But maybe you’re saying all of this anyway and I misinterpreted it. This somehow proves my point more? I guess this is just my sometimes cynical-seeming view of the world, but I don’t see it as cynical. I love when communities fall apart or cast someone out! The thought of being part of a group that welcomes me and loves me because of the fact that we simply share beliefs disgusts me! I can’t explain why. Maybe the thought of being a cog in the machine or something? Maybe Dimitris feels this way too, and it lead him to get banned. I’ll probably get banned from here eventually for being childish, and I’ll try to make it as entertaining and destructive to the forums as possible.
It seems like there are various arguments and most are strongly stated. The debate itself, however, is less interesting. I’d like to think that our opinions are appreciated by the admins but when so many opinions are thrown on the table I imagine they lose interest in reading them :/ Is there some way we can quietly give our thoughts on the matter and maybe influence the admins without making them read the same paragraphs over and over agian?
Wow, Bank Dick, after 3 years I finally get the ending of Camus’ “The Stranger!” And that was a beautiful piece of internet prose. Thank you!
As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself—so like a brother, really—I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again. For everything to be consummated, for me to feel less alone, I had only to wish that there be a large crowd of spectators the day of my execution and that they greet me with cries of hate.
I get it now!
Bank, the point is just that a comunity gets used to these progressive losses.. and the comunity normalizes the situation, ‘cause is the only way left. This has nothing to do with fit in, or to be accepted in a group. As you say, communities and groups fall apart someday; maybe it’s a part of natural cycles. But one thing is for sure: censure and “diplomacy” will increase as this site has more growth. Why? Because investors surely won’t like what some people has to say about 3d mubis, ps3, storytelling canons guided by consumerism, hi-tec devices and international conflicts invented to distract the promising and unpredictable minds of the youngsters of the planet. People like Dimitris and Blue K remind the comunity, that not always cinema speaks in lighter, prudish and easy ways. Just as some great films shock the audiences and take the sh*t out of them in no pleasant ways, these two have thought cinema as a liberating force and not as an alienating force.
Well, I’m under the impression he got ejected because of his attitude and the way he went about things, insulting people, etc., and not his beliefs. Mind you, the same things has happened to me on other boards, and I don’t believe people should be ejected just for being rude or even name calling. The only reason I see to ban people is if they’re flaming the board and disrupting it with tons and tons of repeat posts and shit. But being nasty or an asshole- I say let people do that. We’re all grown-ups, so let’s act like ones- and by that I mean not get so bent out of shape if someone calls someone else a “moron”. Only little kids get upset about that shit.
BUT- that’s the nature of MOST forums. The flip side to that is, try holding an intelligent film conversation on 4chan, then get back to me. I used to think this site was kind o the in between, but I guess not. If Dimitris got banned for having an opinion, one that didn’t jive with corporate interests, that’s a different story. But even then, it’s expected in this world. It shouldn’t be accepted, but it should be expected. That’s why you need to stay true to yourself. I’m not advocating becoming a hermit. I have friends and I love my family. But I learned long ago that I would never be able to make them understand how I see the world, nor could I understand how they see the world. Hence art, and we at least graze each other, maybe create a spark- and this forum is place to talk about this kind of stuff. Which is important too. But not nearly as important, so I don’t get all bent about it.
PS> Nate, can’t tell if you’re mocking me, but somebody compared me to the main character of that book just last night! It’s not really a compliment, I’m not as full of hate or indifference or anything, but maybe he isn’t either. I really like that book, and never quite fully understood the ending, but maybe I do now. I don’t think it’s bad to recognize all humans are completely and fully alone- it’s what every single artists touches on in every single one of their works, isn’t it? I’m not against love or anything!
I’d like to add that I just looked at Dimitris’ profile and it’s kind of comical. apparently the guy can still edit his profile even though he’s banned?
What I find funny is the “War against Mubi” line and all these serious statements. It’s very very funny, and if he’s actually dead serious I feel a little bad for him. Who cares if the Director’s Cup is “canon” stuff anyway…it’s some forum thing. I mean, come on! Put your energy into a work of art, into film preservation, into writing an actual critical essay. Don’t get so worked up over a message board!
And if he’s just looking to blow off some steam and piss people off, go log on from another computer under another name and just start flooding the boards with scat porn. At least it’d be really really funny for a day or two.
Oh, so Blue K is out too. He was one informative guy with a good sense of humor as well as a taste for chicks (!). I think he will be missed, at least by me. I just hope we won’t lose Kenji next!
I’d like to say something in general: Some people take it too seriously. and I’d like to add this one too: Don’t waste your knowledge and precious time. Personally, Im on this website to learn. If I had the vast knowledge about motion picture that some of the members here have, if I had 2000+ films seen and rated, I would never have wasted so much of my time somewhere that Im anonymous and obviously my efforts goes nowhere.
No, I’m sorry bank, I’m really not mocking you. That was probably my favorite post I’ve read on here at all. It was:
The thought of being part of a group that welcomes me and loves me because of the fact that we simply share beliefs disgusts me! I can’t explain why. Maybe the thought of being a cog in the machine or something? Maybe Dimitris feels this way too, and it lead him to get banned. I’ll probably get banned from here eventually for being childish, and I’ll try to make it as entertaining and destructive to the forums as possible.
that really illuminated the Stranger for me… especially the last sentence. I’m sure you’re not like that main character (at least, I hope not), but it just really makes sense now! Thank you!
this whole Dimitris/Blue K business has kind of passed me by, but i enjoy their posts and they are obviously very knowledgeable and passionate about film in general. so they will be missed, no doubt, at least by me anyway.
Having said that, i always found Dimitris stance towards the canon to be incredibly reactionary. Of course people want to ‘uphold the canon’. why not? I certainly do not want people to think Godard and Fellini are not worth the time of day because some director operating in a cave at the ass end of the earth is making a few personal films. He rarely ever came up with examples of directors that challenged the canon in my opinion. lord knows he tried. There is no point railing against the canon for the sake of it, which i often felt he was guilty of, even if his intentions were more noble than most.