Ultimately this affects one’s world view on everything including cinema.
I agree that believing or not believing in God affects one’s world view, but I’m not so clear on how it affects one’s view of cinema or how one watches films. I’m not saying belief or unbelief doesn’t have any impact, but I’m not clear about this. How does your belief in God affect how you view both films as a whole as well as individual films?
So this post will contain the first thing I’d like to throw out there for discussion. It’s really on the philosophical side and establishes an idea that is at the root of most of my philosophical reasoning for the confidence of the necessity of the existence of God.
First of all let me say a little about my history. I grew up always being told by most of my family and community that there was a God and more specifically that God as described in the Christian Bible is real. I was taught that God created the world and humanity for his purposes, thus because He is sole creator and all that He created was intentional then not only do all things have purpose but those purposes are strictly defined by Him. I’ve adopted this thought and for the most part it makes sense to me.
It makes sense to me as opposed to what a lot of other people seem to profess. I’m really trying to get into the minds and rationality of some other people who profess different worldviews. I suspect there are many people at MUBI who hold worldviews like what I’m referring to. The kind of worldview I’m referring to goes something like the following. They believe that the world was not created by any kind of living intelligence, thus nor does it have any specific purpose. However from my perspective these people still live in ways as if certain things do have purpose and thus meaning. They use language which I also do. I use language to convey senses of purpose and meaning. They also like me use language that I understand to indicate that some things are good and some things are bad. In other words, some things are fulfilling an intended purpose and some are not.
I do not see how these beliefs and behaviors go together logically. Some people claim in words that there is no meaning or purpose or the way things should or shouldn’t be but then still seemingly act and do things that would be indicative of someone who did believe things had meaning. These are the most confusing but it’s difficult to even talk to them about it. Others claim there is such a thing as meaning or purpose (which they rightly should because a statement either declaring that there is or isn’t meaning either means something or it doesn’t. So why even make statements if they don’t mean anything?). But they claim that meaning and purpose are not endowed by God who created all things, but come from some other source that has no more authority over humanity than any single person does. In fact some people state that they themselves assign their own meaning and purpose to things.
Now there are a of consequences of believing that a person can assign their own meaning and purpose to things that I have a lot of time wrapping my mind around.
For one, how can you possibly feel like you are communicating anything of value in any of your contact with other people if you know that everyone else is making up their own meaning and purposes for things and that there is no ultimate authority actually verifying their correctness?
Two, even if meaning is defined by each person how can you have any level of confidence in your own decision for yourself about what is meaningful? It’s not hard to see that people change their minds all the time and also hold many beliefs that are in conflict. Clearly people are wrong all the time about their own beliefs. And also most of the time people even fail to successfully fulfill what they have declared to be their own self decided purpose for themselves. What is the benefit of defining our own purposes and meanings if we can’t even fulfill those?
Three, most people who believe this also believe that there is nothing particular special about humans over other matter or living creatures. And also most of them don’t believe in any kind of consciousness of a person after the death of a person’s body on this earth. In other words they don’t believe that there is anything about a person that is eternal. My understanding of meaning is that for something to have meaning it must not be fleeting. Thus for anything about our lives to have meaning it must extend to something eternal. And if everyone dies and does not last beyond that, then what purpose can there be? Except I suppose you could then turn it around and say that’s why purpose must be self defined because it only has meaning for that person and nothing beyond that, but that’s quite a depressing thought to me and in conflict if my self defined meaning is that there is meaning beyond me in community and the rest of the world.
That might have been quite rambling, but those are some of my thoughts. I have no doubt there have been countless books written on the subject in the last millennia or more, but I like engaging with people who can respond instead of just reading a book I can’t talk back to. Of course if someone here has a book they would like to recommend and discuss together, I’m open for that too.
How does your belief in God affect how you view both films as a whole as well as individual films?
Kind of in regards to what I wrote right below your post. In anything, including cinema, we look for meaning. I am going to be attribute the meaning of things I see happening within films in relation to what I know or believe about God and his character and purposes.
awesome idea for a thread, Riss.
Personally, I was raised Catholic, confirmed and all, then out of the blue my parents started taking me to Baptist church. around the age of 16 i halted my beliefs in the Christian religion, sought out other religions/spiritual mediums/etc. Now i am not quite sure what i believe, but i would not label myself as an agnostic.
Regarding cinema, though i am what most would refer to as a “fallen Catholic,” i am still in love with and intrigued by religion in film, e.g. The Gospel According to St. Matthew, The Last Temptation of Christ, Day of Wrath, Fanny and Alexander, Antichrist, A Separation, Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter…Spring, etc. I firmly believe that my being raised religious (and double majoring in Literature—Film Studies [my college didn’t offer film as a major] and Religious Studies) has led to my being more attracted to films that portray certain aspects of religion, especially Abrahamic traditions.
I believe that, philosophically, if you are religious and believe that there is a God, or higher power (whatever your prescribed religion) then at the subconscious level, this will affect your opinion of films, or at least the way you view them, as will it affect your views on everything else in your life. Whether it is known to you, and whether it is overt or subtle is one thing; many here on MUBI may be religious and open-minded at the same time, but ultimately your core beliefs shape your perception of all things, including film—even if your belief is a belief in nothing i.e, Atheism, Nihilism, etc.
I look forward to reading more conversations in here, this is a great idea for a theological thread!
@Ris
I am going to be attribute the meaning of things I see happening within films in relation to what I know or believe about God and his character and purposes.
If you don’t mind, what would be an example of this—especially of a film that doesn’t involve God or Christianity? As you know, I am a Christian, but I’m not sure how my faith in God affects my viewing of films, at least those not involving Christianity to some degree.
I wonder if I feel this way because my beliefs in human nature, for example, don’t strictly stem from my belief in God or the Bible. I think my perception of human nature is in line with the Bible, but if I weren’t a Christian, I think I don’t think my perception and understanding of human nature would change very much.
Now if we’re talking about the meaning and purpose of existence, then my religious beliefs would definitely be significant. However (and I’m sort of guessing here), films contain their own worldview and construct their own moral and existential universe. Films have their own ideas about human nature, spirituality, etc., and generally, I think I try to evaluate a film within the context of the universe a film has created.
At the same time, if that universe is too different of my understanding of human beings—to the point where it seems false or unrealistic—I might not like the film or I might not think it was a good film. But I think I can enjoy and appreciate a film that has a universe or POV that differs from Christianity. For example, the spiritual/moral universe of Wood Allen films differ from a Christian narrative. But this doesn’t affect my estimation or perception of the film. I don’t agree with his films’ views on God and human existence, but I can still enjoy and value the films.
@Jazz
How do you feel about aspects of films like Shame and their stark, bleak, and unflinching view of fornication and adultery? or a film like The Heart is Deceitful above All Things? If I remember correctly, that film had a lot of disturbing and ungodly things to it, and the title of the film is a quote from the Holy Bible.
Or perhaps end of the world films like Melancholia that are completely void of the aspect of God or religion at all? my father is very Christian, and when films have end of the world scenarios like this, he always critiques the absence of God, or a religious character whatsoever, and if i remember correctly, there is nothing of that at all in Melancholia? Do these things go through your head as you watch the film? or do you simply enjoy the films you see as ars gratia artis?
The issue I’ve been having with both believers and non-believers (truth be told – mostly non-believers lately) is the idea of certainty. I was brought up in the reform Jewish tradition, so my questioning would also apply to the more orthodox of my own faith.
I choose to believe in a higher power, although I have my moments of doubt. The Bible (Old Testament in my case) has provided many profound and meaningful lessons, but I don’t feel it can taken literally as history. Instead, I believe it’s a key to a higher truth that we can never know in this lifetime.
And that’s where my question begins. How can anyone be sure? Yes, faith is a great comfort and responsibility, but how can anyone’s faith be unshakable in the absence of any observable proof? I would reverse this question for Atheists, whose certainty I am just as flumoxed by.
Regarding cinema, though i am what most would refer to as a “fallen Catholic,” i am still in love with and intrigued by religion in film, e.g. The Gospel According to St. Matthew, The Last Temptation of Christ, Day of Wrath, Fanny and Alexander, Antichrist, A Separation, Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter…Spring,
I’m interested in most of those as well. I love Spring, Summer, Fall, Winter…Spring even though it is clearly a Buddhist film, but I’m always fascinated and touched by films portraying people striving to connect with something spiritual.
Whether it is known to you, and whether it is overt or subtle is one thing; many here on MUBI may be religious and open-minded at the same time, but ultimately your core beliefs shape your perception of all things, including film—even if your belief is a belief in nothing i.e, Atheism, Nihilism, etc.
And sometimes our stated belief or what we overtly declare we believe does not jibe with our underlying beliefs. Our upbringing and culture instills a lot of fundamental belief in us that are rooted deeper than we realize or want to admit. As the cliche goes, actions speak louder than words sometimes about what we believe.
I look forward to reading more conversations in here, this is a great idea for a theological thread!
It’s cool to hear you were a religious studies major and that you are enthusiastic to join in the discussion here!
The issue I’ve been having with both believers and non-believers (truth be told – mostly non-believers lately) is the idea of certainty.
A complete red herring. The difference between believers and non-beievers is that non-believers don’t organize their entire being around something that cannot be proved with certainty. While believers organize their entire being around old regional literature and superstitions.
That’s a case in point Jerry. You dismiss thousands of years of tradition and belief embraced by most of the human race pretty casually. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but it it seems you must be pretty confident in your own world view to do so with certainty.
Religion is like science. It’s a collection of theories that remains acknowledged until proven false.
If you don’t mind, what would be an example of this—especially of a film that doesn’t involve God or Christianity? As you know, I am a Christian, but I’m not sure how my faith in God affects my viewing of films, at least those not involving Christianity to some degree.
It’s not really that difficult to think about. Film reflects life, so it’s just how you see anything in life. You are telling me “especially a film that doestn’ involve God or Christianity” but if I see that God created all and has authority over all then every movie involves God. Somehow I feel like picking a film out is going to single it out unnecessarily, so maybe you pick a film that you can see that I have watched recently that you have also seen that you feel like is not about God or Christianity and I’ll try to give an exampe of how I saw it. You can just look through my recent ratings.
I wonder if I feel this way because my beliefs in human nature, for example, don’t strictly stem from my belief in God or the Bible. I think my perception of human nature is in line with the Bible, but if I weren’t a Christian, I think I don’t think my perception and understanding of human nature would change very much.
That could be the reason. I feel that my beliefs in human nature do stem from God. I can’t really imagine what it would be outside of that though. It hink that’s what I’m trying to get a perspective on with this dialogue here.
Now if we’re talking about the meaning and purpose of existence, then my religious beliefs would definitely be significant. However (and I’m sort of guessing here), films contain their own worldview and construct their own moral and existential universe. Films have their own ideas about human nature, spirituality, etc., and generally, I think I try to evaluate a film within the context of the universe a film has created.
Films are just reflective of their creators. And they are not new universese. They are still entirely within this universe. They may reflect the worldview of others, but a person is still always viewing that worldview through their own worldview first. I find it commendable to some extent that you try your best to place yourself entirely within the worldview of the film while watching it and to abandon your own, but personally I find that impossible to do.
At the same time, if that universe is too different of my understanding of human beings—to the point where it seems false or unrealistic—I might not like the film or I might not think it was a good film. But I think I can enjoy and appreciate a film that has a universe or POV that differs from Christianity. For example, the spiritual/moral universe of Wood Allen films differ from a Christian narrative. But this doesn’t affect my estimation or perception of the film. I don’t agree with his films’ views on God and human existence, but I can still enjoy and value the films.
I’m not saying I can’t enjoy a film with a different world view from mine. Everyone has somewhat of a different world view. I can even appreciate films with fundamentally different worldviews, sometimes it’s just for different reasons than probably were originally intended.
And that’s where my question begins. How can anyone be sure? Yes, faith is a great comfort and responsibility, but how can anyone’s faith be unshakable in the absence of any observable proof? I would reverse this question for Atheists, whose certainty I am just as flumoxed by.
From a strictly philosophical definition of empiracle proof coming from a Western Enlightenment tradition the fact that we assign meaning to things even though we have no observable proof that they should have meaning to me is certainty of a God that endows things with meaning. See my post earlier.
Religion is like science. It’s a collection of theories that remains acknowledged until proven false.
Only if you view religion from a scientific perspective. :)
@Brentos
How do you feel about aspects of films like Shame and their stark, bleak, and unflinching view of fornication and adultery?
First of all, I didn’t have a problem with the darker elements of the film. They seemed realistic and didn’t clash with my understanding of human nature.
Second, I don’t think the film condones, glamorizes or encourages fornication and adultery—so I don’t have a problem with these elements. In other words, simply portraying sex, nudity, fornication, adultery—by itself—doesn’t automatically make a film objectionable for me.
Having said that, if there are some Christians who disagree with me, I can respect that. This is just my personal view on these matters.
Or perhaps end of the world films like Melancholia that are completely void of the aspect of God or religion at all?
I haven’t seen Melancholia yet, but, as I mentioned, I don’t really have a problem with films that are devoid of God. The films are just offering a different perspective. I don’t mind hanging out with and talking to people who don’t believe in God or believe in a different religion. I may not agre with them, but I don’t see that as a problem.
@Brad
And that’s where my question begins. How can anyone be sure? Yes, faith is a great comfort and responsibility, but how can anyone’s faith be unshakable in the absence of any observable proof.
I appreciate the question. Here are some thoughts:
1. To me, faith is categorically different from empircally based knowledge. This may sound obvious, but I think one of the problems stems from addressing faith using science and reason. Perhaps these tools can help one get to faith—but they can also be used to refute faith. In any event, ultimately, faith is entirely different type of knowing, not dependent on science and reason. Personally, I don’t think we’ll be able to prove or disprove the existence of God and that’s the nature of faith.
2. Related to #1, I would say that there is element of uncertainty with regard to faith—because you’re never able to be sure via science or reason. Faith and doubt are linked; you can’t escape doubt in an absolute sense. But that doesn’t mean a strong confidence and belief isn’t possible, either.
3. How does one settle the matter about God’s existence? For one thing, I wouldn’t recommend trying to prove or disprove God via logic or science. Personally, the answer has to be resolved by the individual—look deep into your heart and ask if you believe in God or not?
The other thing I would say is to try and experience faith. By this I mean, try seeking after God and understanding Him and then see what happens. Give God a good faith attempt (no pun intended) and see what happens.
The difference between believers and non-beievers is that non-believers don’t organize their entire being around something that cannot be proved with certainty. While believers organize their entire being around old regional literature and superstitions.
Non believers say they don’t base their being around something that cannot be proven with certainty, but they all behave as if they do.
Religion is like science. It’s a collection of theories that remains acknowledged until proven false.
No! Scientific theories are falsifiable. Religious theories are not. Not a single religious theory has ever been proven false. That’s why they’re religious.
Talk about a can of worms.
You dismiss thousands of years of tradition and belief embraced by most of the human race pretty casually.
And so do you. I can name a hundred gods that you dismiss just as casually: Zeus, Loki, Coyote…well, you get my point.
Non believers say they don’t base their being around something that cannot be proven with certainty, but they all behave as if they do.
Really? How does anyone base their being around their certainty that Zeus doesn’t exist. Give me a single example.
Risselada, here’re a couple of thoughts. We are all practiced in the suspension of disbelief when we watch a film or read a novel. We know that it is fiction, and we usually know who the author(s) were. But not always—who was Homer? I think most of what gets called religion is very like these kinds of fictions except in two regards. First, religions are generally participatory with various ritual practices. Second, and more interestingly, religions involve the permanent suspension of disbelief. For some religions, we know who the authors were—Joseph Smith creating Mormonism. But for many religions, the authors, like Homer, have disappeared into the mists of time.
Secondly, as to your question in the OP about meaning and purpose and life, why would the opinion of some other kind of creature or entity (even a supernatural one like a god) make a bit of difference? If somebody or some thing or some non-thing (whatever that would mean) came along and said “hey bub, here’s the real purpose of your life”, I wouldn’t care what that thing is, I’d only be interested in the argument, and I’m not about to accept an argument that I disagree with. Whether a god or not, it wouldn’t make a difference.
Really? How does anyone base their being around their certainty that Zeus doesn’t exist. Give me a single example.
By the fact that almost the entirety of Greece has embraced Abrahamic traditions (almost the entire new testament was written in Greek) and shove away their old polytheistic beliefs as “Greek Mythology.”
By labeling it as Mythology, they are certainly dismissing it as false, fable, allegory, unreal, etc.
Mythology, n. 1) A collection of myths, esp. one belonging to a particular religious or cultural tradition.
2) A set of stories or beliefs about a particular person, institution, or situation, esp. when exaggerated or fictitious
Myth, n. 1. a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, especially one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.
2. stories or matter of this kind: realm of myth.
3. any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.
4. an imaginary or fictitious thing or person.
5. an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution.
there is a Christian Mythos that exists, but for the most part the existing world religions, especially those handed down by Abraham, are not recognized as myth.
mythology is an aspect of religion. folklorists define a myth as “a sacred narrative explaining how the world and humankind came to be in their present form” <- as in creation myths (adam and eve in the garden of eden). it’s a story we told to explain things we didn’t understand. the bible is full of them. so is star wars
mythology is not a lie. mythology is poetry, it is metaphorical. it has been well-said that mythology is the penultimate truth — penultimate because the ultimate cannot be put into words. It is beyond words, beyond images. Mythology pitches the mind beyond that rim, to what can be known but not told. – joseph campbell
see also: art is the lie that tells the truth -pablo picasso
Most people who believe in it recognize the “myths” in the Holy Bible as “allegory.”
By the fact that almost the entirety of Greece has embraced Abrahamic traditions (almost the entire new testament was written in Greek) and shove away their old polytheistic beliefs as “Greek Mythology.”
You missed the point of my question, which is that non-believers don’t organize themselves around non-belief.
almost the entire new testament was written in Greek
Exactly- it was written by highly educated scholars (and they weren’t Greek, btw) who had no contact with the world of Jesus. This is how all myths are established.
there is a Christian Mythos that exists, but for the most part the existing world religions, especially those handed down by Abraham, are not recognized as myth.
It’s recognized as myth by 90% of the American Academy of Science. And 65% of French. The more educated you are, the more likely you are to recognize the mythology. That’s why Republicans are afraid of science.
How would people feel if you told them you were never baptised?
Also, Christians don’t completely recognize the Old Testament as “necessary” to Christianity. It’s more of a ‘foundation’ and ‘stories’. It’s the New Testament that’s important to them. The Old Testament is just extra information, and allegory, and in some cases “myth” (though getting most Christian’s to admit this through their stubbornness is more difficult that it should be). As for the Qur’an, I’m no expert in Islamic traditions, but I’m pretty sure they stick pretty steadfast to their holy manuscript and it’s teachings. Most schools of Buddhism also stick pretty closely to the Buddhist scriptures and the various Vedas, though some (like all religions) are more ‘progressive’ and ‘lenient’ than others.
How would people feel if you told them you were never baptised?
Christian mythology is very clear on this- if someone didn’t pour water over your head, a snake is going to torture you for all eternity.
People generally don’t have a hard time seeing the myths of other religions as being fictional creations. It is only with regard to their own religion that they do the permanent suspension of disbelief.
But, yeah, storytelling is a very important thing humans do, and stories are at the core of religions.
Risselada
We’ve had many topics before on the forum about belief in God or beliefs or practices regarding what different traditions say about God. Other times topics on other subjects have also turned towards those questions. I’ve enjoyed the conversations I’ve had with other users in those topics. They have provided the ability for me to broaden my understanding of things by getting to delve into other people’s beliefs as well as instigated me to try to investigate, rectify, and articulate my own beliefs when people have asked me questions about them. So I thought it might be fruitful to create a new topic where there can be an ongoing dialogue and continual opportunity for people to pose questions to those who have different beliefs regarding fundamental views on the purpose of life.
Some people will probably question why I am creating this topic. I’m fully expecting some of the first posts in this thread to be snarky comments saying there’s no point in discussing this or predicting the quick death or deterioration of the topic. I don’t mind that because this forum is for cinema lovers so people are not coming here primarily to discuss these fundamental questions and it’s expected that many will have no interest in discussing here. But we do have an off topic section to the forum here because if you spend enough time around the same community of people, even if they originally got together for purposes of discussing a particular common interest, if it is a healthy community it will grow into wanting to discuss broader topics. So if anyone from this community is interested in discussing this topic which I enjoy discussing and investigating, I’m just opening the door because I love you all. :)
The question of fundamental purpose is a big question. It’s the biggest question of all, and must address whether one believes in God and if so what one believes are the qualities of God. Ultimately this affects one’s world view on everything including cinema. And if two people are disagreeing on something regarding cinema and can’t work it out very quickly, it’s probably because they have some certain fundamental different assumptions in their worldview. So that’s at least one obvious way in which these topics can be appropriate for this larger community, even for some people who do not think of spirituality as having any kind of regular impact on their thoughts or behaviors.
Of course since this subject of this topic deals with issues of fundamental assumptions that affect a person’s entire worldview, differences of perspective can often lead to emotionally charged responses. In light of that I just want to remind everyone that the guidelines established by MUBI for posting in the forum require each user to treat each other user with respect. Even if this position is not the same as your worldview, to post here you must avoid making remarks that are disparaging or derogatory of any other user. Thank you for respecting these guidelines.
So please feel free to throw out any questions or comments you have for the MUBI community.