I’ve seen neither by either but I’m just bumping this because I’m surprised no one has weighed in. I know their are some J. To fans out there. Yeah, I just called him J. To
This is the same argument we have every time Criterion releases a contemporary title. To and Kurosawa are important contemporary filmmakers, and Mad Detective and Tokyo Sonata are two excellent films. I’m not really interested in comparing To and Kurosawa to Murnau and Renoir, though.
I see what you mean Matt but I think Ben is simply concerned with the collections being called “Masters of Cinema.” obviously “Criterion” has lofty meanings as well but they are not so blatant.
a rose by any other name . . .
…is still a pose? :)
Matt. Fair call. I wasn’t really interested in getting too worked up about comparing Teshigahara to Kurosawa or making comparisons to Renoir or J.To (lol) but for me i didn’t think these films were excellent at all and was interested in other people’s feelings about the films AND their addition to the label as opposed to Eureka releasing them as regular releases or something like that (they did that, right?).
As I said originally I wonder whether both those releases will endure in the long term (maybe as opposed to other J.To and KK films??) and what people think would be other worthy (or better) contemporary Asian films for inclusion. Also are J.To and KK really masters of contemporary asian cinema? I don’t think so but I’m really interested to know other people’s opinions on them…
Whether or not a film will “endure” is always debatable, but as the critic Fred Camper wrote, “like many great filmmakers — Howard Hawks, John Ford, Raoul Walsh — Hong Kong-based To makes movies that are both commercially viable and animated by a powerful artistic vision.” As for Kurosawa, Chuck Stephens wrote:
“more than half of this filmmaker’s output currently hides in the shadows, quietly unassimilated outside of Japan; their potential for contextually intensifying the films that currently circulate internationally remains, for the moment, tamed. And if Kurosawa’s output is already enormous — monstrous by the standards of most mammals with their movie cameras — his youth and current popularity suggest that his filmography still has far to grow. Is it even possible, from our currently compromised position, to tell the forest from the trees? For the moment, Cure seems to have decimated all the films that came before it, even if it’s done so in cruel and beautiful ways. But Kurosawa’s meta-narrative is still evolving and shooting off in new directions, just as it has been for more than 20 years. It may eventually require a new diagnosis, but for now it might need a cure.”
I started the topic to encourage that debate and discussion about endurance and what people’s opinions are on whether these will be seen as highlights in those director’s careers and other issues. You said that To and Kurosawa are both important contemporary filmmakers which for the most part I would agree with. But I think there’s a difference in them being important and them making great pieces of cinema.
Me listing all the other MoC directors was just being funny as J.To and Antonioni is apples and oranges, in fact Antonioni and Melville is too. Mike, yeah, I was a little concerned with that because it is a pretty strong declaration. I noticed the other day they’re releasing SOUL POWER as well which I haven’t seen. But it raises questions too, Jeffrey Levy-Hinte? I mean he’s more of a producer right? Matt, it is kind of a corporate and artistic statement when you include a director/producer under a banner like “master of cinema” or “criterion” and i think there can be interesting discussions about this fact that don’t just resort to comparing THE ROCK to RULES OF THE GAME.
Yes, Johnnie To can keep working in Hong Kong’s decimated industry and many of his works are commercial successes and many critics note a ‘powerful artistic vision’ and I don’t dispute his commercial standing. I respect Johnnie To’s standing in the industry and his business savvy in continuing a career in a territory almost destroyed by the mainland’s growth but I don’t really extend that respect to Johnnie To as a powerful artist or auteur or whatever you want to say. I’m less sure of that ‘powerful artistic vision’ or just how good that ‘artistic vision’ is. Like I said let’s not get bogged down in comparing Hawks to J.To but when I look back at the films I’ve seen of To’s even the better ones don’t really stand up as great films, at least by my standards and when he has off-days they are really off. Auteurist readings of To seem to me a little complicated by the fact that Wai Ka-fai often joins him directing and writing and also the literature and readings I’ve read on To choose to wax over or completely ignore the dreck like NEEDING YOU or YESTERDAY ONCE MORE and don’t seem to note any variance in good To and bad To. I like THE MISSION, PTU and EXILED but for me they’re not outstanding pieces of work.
As for Kurosawa I’ve read Stephen’s work (he’s one of my fave critics) and he has important points in that film comment article about how we can reach understandings of foreign directors whose work is difficult to see. But still, he wrote that in 2001 and since then we’ve had PULSE, SEANCE, BRIGHT FUTURE, LOFT, RETRIBUTION and DOPPELGANGER, plus TOKYO SONATA…i think there are signs of evolution in the 2000s work and patterns of thematic concern and formal style which have come through since Stephens wrote that in 2001.
i know many of Kurosawa’s V-cinema remains unavailable to the vast majority but I would hope people may be able to weigh in on personal feelings from what they’ve seen. I mean Miike is like that, in so far as his V-cinema work is hard to see, but it doesn’t stop people discussing what they see as consistencies in form and content throughout what’s available.
Have you seen Kurosawa’s early films? What are they like?
Masters,no.
Excellent filmmakers? Yes, even though I’m not a fan of Johnnie To.
They are great contemporary directors, nothing more. I can’t imagine To’s film will stand the test of time as much as I love some of his works. Kurosawa on the other hand, Ive never been a fan of in the slightest.
I’ll agree Ben, that evaluating To (and, perhaps, Kurosawa as well) mid-career is complicating by the fact that he hasn’t produced a film that’s a consensus masterpiece. Nevertheless, To stages and edits action sequences better than anyone else currently making films, and his shot composition (composing in anamorphic (2.35:1), using Techniscope, an Italian system from the 1970s) is exceptional. I’m not sure that I would single out Mad Detective as the To film most likely to “endure” (in fact I’m pretty sure I would choose something else), but it’s a reasonable exemplar of his style.
I’ll let some others have a chance to weigh in before I say anything else about Kurosawa.
@Matt. I wonder to what extent Wai Ka-fai plays a part in the aesthetic pleasures To’s films offer. I think both of them are fine workmen, although one well-informed critic brought up the idea with me over discussions on this topic that Wai Ka-fai has most of the innovative ideas of the pair. I’m gonna watch WRITTEN BY soon so we’ll see if that’s a fair call. I think MAD DETECTIVE offers a few more narrative pleasures than say EXILED or ELECTION as I felt those films were competent entries into their genres whereas MAD DETECTIVE’s conceit is fun and a nice twist on something familiar in HK cinema. Did you see EYE IN THE SKY by Yau Nai-hoi, a fprotege of To? What did you think?
What films of To’s do you like? Any reccies for a cynic like me?
According to the film scholar David Bordwell (see his blog entry on Mad Detective here) although they get co-billing on Mad Detective and elsewhere, there’s generally a simply division of labor. Wai scripts and then consults during production, To does the actual shooting.
Although, I like Exiled and Election, I prefer some of the earlier films like Running Out of Time, The Mission, Fulltime Killer, PTU, and Breaking News. I haven’t seen Eye in the Sky yet.
Check out EYE IN THE SKY if you’re a completist. I had to watch it for work ages ago and thought it was okay. But yeah, Bordwell would know. hahaha. To’s name even pops up in his book on hollywood narrative construction!!
I recently saw ALL ABOUT AH LONG again which doesn’t have any real distinct marks of recent To but it was fun to revisit.
I’m really excited to see how this Jia Zhang-ke/Johnnie To collaboration goes down.
I’ve heard good things about Soi Cheang’s Accident.
Ben Cho
I know Eureka has to make some cash by releasing newer release art-films but do you think MAD DETECTIVE and TOKYO SONATA will endure (even as cult titles) in years and decades to come? I thought TOKYO SONATA was the stronger of the two, but I didn’t like either of them that much and to be honest I don’t think Kurosawa or To (and Wai Ka-fai) really qualify as masters of cinema (by my standards anyway).
I’m interested to hear what people think of those titles making the roster and what they think of the directors in general.
Antonioni, Teshigahara, Murnau, Franju, Lang, Melville, Visconti, Naruse, Imamura, Renoir, Sirk…Johnnie To and Wai Ka-fai?