So are you telling me that no such thing as a racist idea can exist?
“So are you telling me that no such thing as a racist idea can exist?”—-No, i’m telling you your logic is not entirely sound. I don’t quite see how you could have extrapolated that from my observation of your error.
Blue, who started the ‘birther’ conspiracy?
Does ‘all evidence’ include his African grandmother who claimed that he was born in Kenya?
The right should have dropped the birth certificate stuff as soon as Obama was elected, because at that point it doesn’t matter.
The Obama grandmother thing is a myth.
The argument here has broen down over the difference between those who are claiming the people who make up the movement consitute its essence and those that are claiming the ideas are the essence of the movement. The people involved may not all be racist, but race is an essential part of the viability of the “success of the argument” over the birth certificate. It may have been political shenanigans to initiate the claim, but it requires race be involved for it to work basically.
My post was not aimed at any one poster in particular.
I agree with you about the birther movement itself being a racist movement. I do not know where the birther idea began exactly, but I do not doubt that the movement’s spread has been primarily fueled by racial animosity.
I think we all mainly agree with what greg x just said, “race is an essential part of the viability of the “success of the argument” over the birth certificate”.
Edit: And that dope fiend willy is not contributing anything.
The genetic fallacy doesn’t apply here, because that only applies in cases when the essential meaning of an original idea has changed to something completely different from its original intention. Genetic fallacy usually involves ideas that are very old and have gone through several incarnations with different meanings. Does not apply in this case, beep, nope. The birther movement is only a few years old, and the essence of it has not changed at all.
If the birther argument is an essentially racist idea from a mere 3 years ago, you’re claiming the genetic fallacy card to say that the nature of the movement has totally changed? Come on now. Nothing IN ESSENCE has changed about the birther movement. You can see the recent antics by Donald Trump and Pat Buchanan for evidence.
I jumped the gun and asked if you don’t believe that a racist idea can exist because once the silliness about genetic fallacy is thrown out the window, I wonder what your next argument will be.
@ Dope Fiend,
Yes, I’m well aware that Hilary started the dirty racist tactic. And your point? And no, his African STEP-grandmother never claimed that he was born in Kenya. She was speaking through an interpreter, and the interpreter corrected right afterward that she did NOT say that she was there to see his birth. It’s called simple communication problems. It happens all the time in live interpreting, especially when it involves really old ladies.
Rustic, what is there to contribute? This was a silly thread to begin with, but the answer is that the British are bigger morons. Those who sing God Save the Queen, while she stands there thinking that she is superior to all others, are the bigger morons.
Americans handled that shit over 200 years ago, unlike the Brits, the Canadians or any of her Majesty’s SUBJECTS.
Hilary was such a racist, that Barack made her Secretary of State.
@BLUE K, CUSTODIAN OF THE CINEMA
“The genetic fallacy doesn’t apply here, because that only applies in cases when the essential meaning of an original idea has changed to something completely different from its original intention.
No, you claimed that the idea was racist in origin, and therefore those associated with it are racist. But being that the idea is not itself inherently racist, you’ve committed a genetic fallacy, as the origin/intent of the idea is irrelevant to those who believe it now(outside of its originators). Is the idea associated with racial ideas? YES, we’ve gone over this.
“The birther movement is only a few years old, and the essence of it has not changed at all.” There is NO inherent ‘essence’, nor does it being 3yrs old negate the genetic fallacy. There are different categories of birthers with different claims and different motives. I’ve heard birthers say they don’t believe Obama was born in America, but it doesn’t bother them because they like him anyway!!!!! How many times do i have to repeat this, it is NOT inherently racist!!! Wrong? sure. Often racially motivated? Sure.
This thread is one hell of a wild ride. If you were in a room, the walls would have fallen down. Perhaps we could take a vote on this whole MORON business and settle it once and for all. A poll perhaps?
It’s all just fun well mannered debate.
All right, try it from this angle, the movement has an inherent Implicit racism built into it since even if the idea was purely cynical politicking it required using Obama’s race as a functional factor in his eligibility for the office, and anyone who takes up the idea is also agreeing with a supposition that there is a racial issue at stake. This falls somewhat sort of necessitating an assumption of explicit racism from all that believe in this wackiness, but the very nature of the debate does require an assumption that Obama’s race is a factor when it wouldn’t be for a white candidate, at least one without an accent.
Yes I know, that’s what I was saying. More exciting than 60 Minutes that’s for sure.
If Obama’s father was white South African-or white Kenyan, for that matter; there would be the same questions.
The dislike for Barack Obama stems from his being a radical leftist.
The Bush Presidency opened a lot of eyes in this country, and not just those on the left.
" it required using Obama’s race as a functional factor in his eligibility for the office, and anyone who takes up the idea is also agreeing with a supposition that there is a racial issue at stake."
@DOPE FIEND WILLY
Read my post. You’re the one who hides.
Obama is a ‘radical leftist’? I hadn’t realised.
Yes, but the tactic, however it may have arose or been consciously intended implicitly relies on the assumption of “difference” that in comes from his visual racial characteristics. As I hinted, there is a possibility that this same sort of tactic could have been used for someone with some other outward sign of “difference” such as an accent, but it does require an outward indicator of some sort to work. That being the case, race then becomes a part of the equation. One can notice that McCain, who was indeed born outside of the US didn’t face this sort of inquiry. Saying it isn’t a logical requirement of their claim is a bit off since the claim isn’t logical in its basis, it’s illogical, implicitly racist, that’s the point. One could theoretically have made this demand from anyone who ran for president, but it didn’t arise until there was this outward sign of “difference” which suggests it isn’t inherently a rational argument at all so defending it on rational grounds misses the point. The practical, actual, or non-theoretical side of the issue arises from this implicit frame of thinking. It could In theory apply elsewhere, but in fact only applied in this instance and for reasons that come from assumed difference.
@DOPEFIEND(ORWHATEVERYOURNAMEUSEDTOBE) “If Obama’s father was white South African-or white Kenyan, for that matter; there would be the same questions.”
Ah… probably not, since he’d look white, and his last name would probably sound English/ Afrikaner, not Muslim.
rustic, I don’t know what you are talking about.
greg, you are the one making this about race.
Noel, what do you think of Obama, the President? His actions in Libya, for instance?
I’m in the military, done several combat tours in Iraq/ Afghanistan. Pres. Obama (and Pres. Bush previously) is my Commander in Chief, so I won’t give you any comment on those matters.
But I can tell you the Birther movement crossed the line when they started using our servicemen and women in their political rethoric. Recently, two Army officers were court-martialed and have their career ended in disgrace for refusing to go on deployment, based on the principle that the president is not legitimate- a stunt supported and encouraged by the birthers. (Nut Orly Taitz even represented one of them). Many people don’t want to deploy for variety of obvious reasons, but to use the birth/ legitimacy debate is just going too far. In other countries, those two would’ve faced the firing squad- instead, the birthers hailed them as heroes. Disgraceful, worse than morons!
Acknowledging different outward appearances is not necessarily racist, so I don’t see where you are going with that. In fact, just by his name and complexion alone one can tell that he has non European ancestries. It all depends on what the person does with that knowledge. What makes some birthers racist is theyre implementing the bcertificate thing as if they really care about his origin of birth(despite evidence showing he’s American by birth).They just dont want a black man with an unfamiliar name being president.
“Saying it isn’t a logical requirement of their claim is a bit off since the claim isn’t logical in its basis, it’s illogical, implicitly racist, that’s the point”—- this doesn’t make sense. the rightness or wrongness of the birthers claims hinges upon the evidence required to affirm or disprove their claim, not upon the logic behind the origins of the claim.
Acknowledging differences in appearance is indeed not necessarily racist, treating a person differently or demanding of them a higher standard of behavior before occasioning the same treatment as another, however, is something else entirely. Yes, his name and appearance are outward signifiers of a supposed “difference” without those signifiers there would have been no call for him to show his birth certificate, so, those that are calling for him to show his birth certificate are asking of him something more than they have for any other candidate, therefore it is an issue predicated on those signifiers and treating someone differently because of them.
The argument I’m making has nothing to do with whether or how their desires are met, it has to do with where those desires have arisen and what that implies. There is no rightness or wrongness to be contested since this is a question of belief and doubt. To adopt the idea that this isn’t about the initial formulation of their beliefs or how their demands only fit one specific candidate gives their belief set a validity that is unwarranted since it arises from a unmerited set assumptions. The reasoning behind the birth certificate demand is flawed from the beginning, so to carry through that set of claims simply perpetuates the essential flaw in their belief set which is informed by race, whether consciously or no.
We should start a thread on the Tea Party….
no u shouldn’t lol. did anyone read that trump is now calling for the release of obama’s high school transcripts as he seems to believe obama got into harvard on some affirmative action deal? and graduated magna cum laude and edited the harvard law review. disgraceful! i’m sure it puts george bush’s academic career to shame.
oh gag me ruby, almost nothing makes me more upset than idiots complaining about affirmative action… talk about your racists.
Alex—Don’t think I can trust third party candidates, either. I think the entire system needs to be shut down and restarted, and no one with any previous political experience should be allowed in
well yes, the system needs to be shut down (but not restarted), but that’s not viable at this point, but there are actions that you can take (such as voting third party) to make it more viable. to not trust third party candidates… that’s silly, we hardly have any to use as examples. the only ones i can think of in the senate are lieberman (might as well be democrat) and bernie sanders (awesome).
I’ve been following it on the news so I’m quite well informed.
It’s hard to say who is the biggest moron, but the back and forth between KRAUTHAMMER and TRUMP was gold. I missed the Royal Wedding but will be rushing out to purchase the soundtrack. It was interesting to see the highlights and that GUY RITCHIE and the BECKHAMS were among the guests, all those people in the same place.
nevermind my sarcasm isn’t up to par right now…