Border Patrol Officer Shots 14 Year old in the head for throwing rocks.

JASON:

You say he wasn’t 14, but 15 like that makes some kind of difference. You also say he had a criminal record. That is wrong, but certainly something the Border patrol and FOX news would like everyone to believe. Plant the seed that this was a dangerous criminal and then admit later that he was a “suspected” criminal. He was never charged with a crime. And this business about the cop being surrounded sure seems a stretch judging by the video.

Uli is right, we are all one. Different cultures, peoples and individual lives should be valued and respected. Like the natural world with extinctions and food chains, we are interdependent; colonial exploitation and intolerance are harmful and counter-productive. Re intolerance towards immigrants, we should think of our common humanity and try to put ourselves into the shoes of others. This may sound pompous or naive to some, but really i’m convinced cooperation not competition is better for us all in the long run. The future of our race and planet is not assured and self-interest and greed can only endanger it. Those with the power, financial and military, must take responsibility for their actions and fairer treatment of the less powerful. The media of course in many countries support powerful vested interests, oppression and injustice, and the Murdoch press and channels like Fox (but also the BBC which has a ranking system on the value of lives by nationality and skin colour) must take a lot of the blame

Violence from one group on another group is not the answer, education is the answer, tolerance is the answer. There is a common ground for all people if they will accept dropping labels and realize that we are all in the same fight, just to get by, have time to achieve something of our own, time to find love, time to gain knowledge, time to teach the next generation. For us to truly succeed we have to remove the restraints of nationalism and supposed races, and see we are the human race, no better and no worse.

Rudiger,
I really feel bad for the Canadian drug problem, but we have bigger issues down on the border of our southern neighbor.

Strawdawg, I don’t care about any of that. We shouldn’t need justification for shooting anybody who crosses the border. If Mexico was a good neighbor, this would never be an issue.

Kenji, I’m sorry my friend, but I think that you are naive. Cooperation is great among like minded people. That being said, not everybody wants to cooperate, or assimilate. As a person, one must protect themselves, and their families from those who do not have your best interests in heart, and as a community, and indeed country, you must do the same. To wish and hope that the next man is going to cooperate with you or pull his own weight will only bring you down to his level, not he up to yours.

Immigration can bring many new and wonderful things to a community, and the right kind of immigrants enrich a community and are often preferable to the dregs that currently walk the streets and crowd the motorways. I was watching the National Spelling Bee the other day, and half of the finalists’ families were from east of 30 degrees longitude. I prefer to have intelligent people in my country, whether they are Christian, Muslim, or Hindu, or whatever; not a bunch dummies and rednecks that spend their evenings getting hammered or watching the idiot box.

That being said, competition is productive. Greed is a natural element, but must be controlled by reasonable law. But competition is essential to moving a society forward, a good example is the National Spelling Bee. Those kids are going places, because they have the desire, the means, and the methods to better themselves, and while pursuing their own achievements in life, many will make life better for others as well, be it through technological advances or charitable contributions or artistic endeavors, etc.

Even the greatest achievements of the Soviet Union came because they wanted to compete with Europe and America, be that film, the space race, or whatever. Even if their society was supposedly built on cooperation, the natural urge for competition still existed, and rose to the very top.

ULI, in what way will people throw off the restraints of Nationalism, and supposed races? How do you foresee this coming about?

I don’t know, but Hope for the Future is always better than Resigned to the Present.

I see the southern border is such a BIG danger for the USA that they have to shoot if someone crosses the border.But the truth is in most cases another. The rich states exploit the poor countries until it is hard to live there for the people and then – CLOSE THE BORDER.
Paranoia is a disease and a very serious one.

JASON

You say you don’t care about any of that. The facts that is. They are always getting in your way, aren’t they?

“Greed is a natural element, but must be controlled by reasonable law. But competition is essential to moving a society forward”

But what are we moving towards? With the majority of the world in poverty and complete environmental catastrophe around the corner, it’s no wonder Americans are so worried about Mexicans jumping the border.

No American government will make any real changes to the way things are now, because:

a) The American economy is reliant on illegals.

b) Making Mexico a place worth living means admitting the drug war has been lost.

c) Politicians with solutions that involve compromise will lose the “dey took our jerbs” vote.

I’m with Uli that education and tolerance are the answer, but since an us versus them attitude is at the heart of Western culture, I don’t think we’ll see any real change for a long while.

Much of the world lives in conditions that I would not want to raise a family in. This is sad, but I would not trade places with someone in Mexico City, much less a favela in Rio, or a slum in South Africa, or Mumbai, or a broken down town in Siberia, or in the capital city of China.

Your ideal is not shared by people in power. In America and Europe, as well as some other places, we live in relative comfort and freedom. Sure our nations are controlled by rich and powerful people, many of whom who’s families have been at the top for a long while, although some of our societies have more upward mobility than others-partly thanks to capitalism. Other nations are far more closed off, and limited in upward mobility of any kind, and may not take kindly to whatever future you advocate. These people will not give up control in the face of your hope.

In some ways, the best things that the best countries can do is to export their own brand of civilization as best they can. The best values that I can promote would be political free speech, Rule of Law, and private property rights, and free market capitalism, without government intervention. And in general, it doesn’t get much better or more concise than the American Bill of Rights-these 10 amendments cover some pretty important stuff.

i’m not against a competitive spirit per se, have no problem with sports or friendly rivalries, and nations taking a pride in achievement (tribalism is quite ingrained) but when it’s in a spirit of hatred, bigotry, exploitation, warfare, destruction, and leads to mass obesity and waste in certain countries, and continuing famine and preventable disease in others, all this in the 21st century, decades after the moon landing, and with all the scientific progress, well surely we can do much better. This feeling for a need to protect one’s country and take preventative action against relatively weak ones perceived as potential threats keeps leading to endless wars and violence and ongoing ill-feeling for generations. Colonial interference and terror (shock and awe etc) leads to “terrorism”, violence breeds violence, capital punishment in the US has certainly not stopped a high level of murders, a huge number of US citizens are banged up, especially young black men, but still extensive crime persists, widespread ownership of guns and shootings of unarmed youngsters are surely not the solution. Jason, you complain of stupid rednecks, but is that not an indictment of the US system and poor education standards. It isn’t necessary to adopt socialism even or leave all to a completely unfettered free market; other Capitalist countries seem to manage better. Scandinavian models are not perfect but their welfare system, based on eradicating poverty as a national shame rather than judgmental and dog-eats-dog attitudes, doesn’t seem to have created a monstrous regiment of redneck idiots. There is a level of civilised behaviour it’s not necessary to fall below; we’re not talking about Nazi Germany as the opponent here, but instead attitudes towards foreigners and immigrants sometimes seem perilously close to the Nazi attitudes.

As for the naturals, what can I say. They were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Jason,

Fortunately, my wireless went kaput or you would have been the subject of one of the most venomous posts seen in the history of the interwebs forums and message boards.

In all seriousness, that was a good thing because it precluded me from making quite an ass of myself. Now that I have had some time to calm down, let me try to address you in a civil fashion. That statement of yours has to be seriously one of the most misanthropic statements I have ever read. I don’t know what religion or life philosophy you subscribe to, but regardless of political ideology, religious denomination, creed, and so on, “wrong place at the wrong time” is an incredibly inhuman thing to say.

Imagine a hypothetical. Someone you care about becomes victim of a horrible violent crime… What is your reply? “Wrong place, wrong time?” Right now, I have to admit that the venom inside me has turned to corn, but if you believe in your own right to self-determination, how can you be so nonchalant and callous about other human beings’ right to self-determination?

You argue for a vigorous self-defense. That’s fine. But shouldn’t basic respect for fellow human beings be a natural corollary to your desire to be respected yourself? I mean you seem rather upset about your own government putting in market regulations. But when it comes to the effective displacement of an entire race of people, your response is “wrong place at the wrong time”?

What would Jesus say to that?

“In some ways, the best things that the best countries can do is to export their own brand of civilization as best they can.”

Ohhhhh. Okay. I think I’m gonna make one of the posts Blue K almost made right now.

Actually, forget that. I’ll just say this:

Wake up to yourself.

We don’t to convert the world to a form of government or a form of religion, we need to remind the world of who we all are. Countries should be allowed to run their lands as they see fit as long as their people are free to think and free to comment on what they see.

I don´t think I go to far that such atitudes as Jasons have nothing to do with humanity and even the basic rules of democracy. It is part of the “Zeitgeist”, a totalism of the market called Neoliberalism but on the other hand a Big step back into the age of colonialism and racism. We have this in Europe like in ITaly where boat people are treated like criminals, we have it since quite a while in Germany where some chickenfuckers called judges think they can decide if a person from that or that country has a “reason” to imigrate to Germany.
It is not only that people should have the right to live where they want. We have now a lot of countries where life is difficult if not unbearable for the people who live there. And it is a matter of fact that some of these countries became like that with the help of the rich countries. The examples I could give are endless and so I don´t begin at all. And especially the USA did a lot for making some countries unbearable.

Fraser,
a.) this is a lie perpetuated by the media, the american economy is not in any way reliant on immigrants. This is akin to saying that a bank is too big to fail, we can possibly let this bank fail because it will cause the whole economy to fail= we can’t stop illegal immigration because the whole economy is reliant on it.

I don’t think that there is a feasible way of sending 20 million latinos back to their home countries, but we can certainly close down the border for a little while, if our politicians cared to do it. They don’t have the fortitude, hopefully we can find some that will. The economy certainly doesn’t need an endless stream of illegal labor, we have enough citizens out of work as it is, and I would like to know just how many illegal immigrants our economy can reasonably support-not too mention that a good majority of illegal immigrants are second or third class citizens by means of their poverty, their self segregation, and the language barrier, I don’t want to live in a society of different castes.

B.) its not America’s job to make Mexico a place worth living in.

C.) I think that people are starting to wake up and realize that the politicians are just as much the enemy as any foreign threat.

Kenji,
you sir, are overrating the human race. Look around you. We live in a world of idiots, and you live in one of the most civilized countries.

As far as America’s political/economic wars, I agree that it is mainly a prop for the military industrial complex- we have no fear of being invaded by Canada, the Mexicans are invading and we do nothing about it-so the military is merely a facade, or a means to prop up the arms industry. We have ZERO risk of being invaded by the Chinese, or the Russians, unless they wanted to take back Alaska-which we bought from them, for Oil.

My attitude towards immigration comes from a few things:
Illegal immigration, and the inability to track who the people who are immigrating are. The fact that someone can use a baby to anchor themselves in the country, and too many people immigrating here who do not subscribe to the ideals of the Founders, and thus changing the philosophical make-up of the nation.

If you take my postings as akin to something out of the third reich, than either I am talking too fast or you are just listening too slow; so to speak.

Much of the world lives in conditions that I would not want to raise a family in. This is sad, but I would not trade places with someone in Mexico City, much less a favela in Rio, or a slum in South Africa, or Mumbai, or a broken down town in Siberia, or in the capital city of China.

Hahaha, dude, seriously, how many countries have you visited and how many languages do you speak?

You live in Biloxi, Mississippi and you’re trashing Beijing, Mexico City, and Rio? Umm, I’ve been to Beijing, Mexico City, and Mississippi, and I would rather eat my own shit before I live in Mississippi. On the other hand, I would LOVE living in Beijing or Mexico City. The only thing that Biloxi might have that those cities don’t is a bunch of inbred redneck retards who drive around in their beat-up trucks with a bumper sticker with a Confederate flag on it that says The South Will Rise Again.

Of course if Mexico had untapped reservoirs of oil, the US would make their job to make it a place worth living.

The biggest problem the world faces is classism, the haves always looking to keeo the have nots down. You can look at George W. and know that without his father’s name he’d be an accountant at H&R Block. Part of Mexico’s problem is the rampant corruption of the Haves.

Hard work only gets you so far. The Middle ground is where most peole live (that middle ground moves around depending on the country), we need to bring up the bottom and, call me Robin Hood, bring down the top; level the playing field.

If the cop was hit with a stone, lapsed into a comma and died six moths later – would anyone be discussing the video of his stoning?

Why not?

Oh, I see, he was on the side of inhumanity…..thanks for all you do Rüdiger.

Blue K,

I can’t apologize for European colonization. I have benefited from it, but so has anyone who lives in America today, even if they just got off the boat or plane from China. The Enlgish, Dutch, French, and Spanish carved up the ‘new world’, and some did it better than others-the Spain and Portugal probably were the worst.

The natives were on the wrong side of history. They weren’t the angels that they have been painted to be, but didn’t deserve to be treated as badly as they were. Can’t change history. People who have an axe to grind against America sometimes act like world history began in 1492 or 1776. No matter what any other country did before or since the inception of America, it nothing and nobody can be as bad as America. There are three main things that people can always bring up against America, partly because our country and Constitution has stood for the past 225+ years is the treatment of the natives, african slavery, and the america war and imperial machine.

No discussion of when European fault for the native genocide or slavery ends and when American responsibility takes precedent, or the fact that the American military empire helped end the German and Japanese terror’s that they waged all over Europe, China, Africa, and the Pacific. Some European countries have had a hundred governments since America declared independence from England, but all of those countries are absolved of all crimes because the current regime had nothing to do with it, and claims no benefit from any of it. Some people know the entire history of America and have never been here. Its amazing.

America has done a lot of bad things, and it has done a lot of good things. We got left with a lot of baggage, and created some of our own. With the natives it came to blows, and it was never going to end well for the outnumbered, outgunned natives. I wasn’t there. Has any nation ever lived up to its ideals? No, but we should always remind ourselves of what those are. Some of the things done to the natives are just downright evil. People are not inherently good, which is why this concept of cooperation will never work. We need competition under rule of law.

gosh.

this should have been inserted somewhere on the previous page, but i like it anyway so:

(that’s if you US guys know who paddington bear is)

….carry on….

“Some of the things done to the natives are just downright evil.”

Yes. And some of the things America has to other foreign countries, from Latin America to the Middle East, are evil. And some of the things America has done to its own people are evil. And I’m talking within the last 0-30 years here, not ancient history. America is only on top because it has made sure to keep other countries down.

If you can’t see this, again, wake up to yourself.

ULI, according to Rudiger, America has made countries with great natural resources unbearable to live in.

Blue K posted :

(quoting me): “Much of the world lives in conditions that I would not want to raise a family in. This is sad, but I would not trade places with someone in Mexico City, much less a favela in Rio, or a slum in South Africa, or Mumbai, or a broken down town in Siberia, or in the capital city of China.”

Blue K’s response:
“Hahaha, dude, seriously, how many countries have you visited and how many languages do you speak?

You live in Biloxi, Mississippi and you’re trashing Beijing, Mexico City, and Rio? Umm, I’ve been to Beijing, Mexico City, and Mississippi, and I would rather eat my own shit before I live in Mississippi. On the other hand, I would LOVE living in Beijing or Mexico City. The only thing that Biloxi might have that those cities don’t is a bunch of inbred redneck retards who drive around in their beat-up trucks with a bumper sticker with a Confederate flag on it that says The South Will Rise Again."

Now for my reply:

Now, China is a closed off totalitarian society, in which all of the internet is not even accessible. I’m sure that in the nicest parts of Beijing, its a great place to be. You can go to the Opera, and I am sure that there is some real world class cuisine being served up in the Kitchens of Beijing. That being said, I wouldn’t want to live in a place that won’t let you got to certain parts of the internet, controls free speech, and has some of the world’s worst smog pollution.

Blue’s response to my post is probably the most racist thing posted in this entire thread. He stereotypes the residence of my fine city by calling them ‘inbred redneck retards’ with beat up trucks and confederate flags.
because I said, that I wouldn’t want to live in a Brasilian Favela-a kind of slum that you will not find in the worst American city, be that in Mississippi or anywhere.

If Mississippi is so bad, then Blue K should spread some of his legendary compassion on it.

And Blue, I promise you, if you want to move to Beijing, Mexico City, or eat your own shit, nobody is going to stop you.

All countries have their freshly dug mass graves, we just have a backhoe while others have shovels.

If I could live anywhere, I would move to Ireland and leave as much rhetoric behind as I could, but I know things could be worse than living in the US, but they sure as fuck could be better.

If the cop was hit with a stone, lapsed into a comma and died six moths later – would anyone be discussing the video of his stoning?

Why not?

Oh, I see, he was on the side of inhumanity…..thanks for all you do Rüdiger.

^ Robert, of course not. Cops are always the bad guys. If a cop dies in the line of duty, nobody cares.

jason, not true.

coming from a person, whose country has at least 702 army bases spread in the world, and 3 of them in my own country, the idea of competition under rule of law sounds just cynic, opportunistic and morbid.

Why do so many people, from so many nations, want to immigrate to America?

To operate the backhoe to fill the mass graves?

If America is as truly horrible, as it has been made out to be on this thread, why do they still come here?

No, no, Jason cops are worse than bad – they are inhuman like soldiers, politicians, business leaders, people who work in government or for a corporation. The only humans are those who breathe deeply of the stinking pile of crap that is moral indignation.

Rüdiger has no problem with die endlösung per se, it is just that it was carried out on the wrong people.
He’s making a list though, and we both know who is on that list.

Blue’s response to my post is probably the most racist thing posted in this entire thread. He stereotypes the residence of my fine city by calling them ‘inbred redneck retards’ with beat up trucks and confederate flags.
because I said, that I wouldn’t want to live in a Brasilian Favela-a kind of slum that you will not find in the worst American city, be that in Mississippi or anywhere.

Nope, Jason, I didn’t stereotype the residents (not “residence” as you’d have it, btw English is my second language). This is what I said:

“The only thing that Biloxi might have that those cities don’t is a bunch of inbred redneck retards who drive around in their beat-up trucks with a bumper sticker with a Confederate flag on it that says The South Will Rise Again.”

Completely different. Because as you KNOW and as I have seen with my own eyes, those bumper stickers do exist and they aren’t terribly uncommon in Mississippi. I didn’t say all the residents of your city have them, but some certainly do; whereas they’re nonexistent in some of the more livable cities in the US like NYC, Seattle, San Francisco, and my current hometown of Honolulu. In fact, your state flag STILL bears the Confederate emblem on it.

Look at this little fact on Mississippi from Wikipedia.
“The state repealed its segregationist era poll tax in 1989 and its ban on interracial marriage (miscegenation) in 1987.”

Hahahahaha, wow, welcome to the 20th century! At least, they decriminalized miscegenation before the new millennium. Way to go!

What, you’re gonna cry about it and accuse me of racism after you’ve been stereotyping the rest of the world without knowing a god damn thing about it? You’re defending the murder of a 14 year old child and you can’t take some shit slung your way? Can dish it out, but can’t take it, can you? Boo hoo hoo…