4 stars means a very solid and excellent film, I only give 5 stars to the very best. Scarface is his cult masterpiece. Even a 3 star rating means it was a decent enough film. 2 wasnt worth the time it took me to watch it, and 1 was a film I truly despised.
I haven’t seen much from DePalma. I’m really just starting to get into him. Scarface must be one of the worst movies I’ve ever seen. Although a lot of people don’t like it, Casualties of War is littered with incredible performances.
“Scarface” is beyond reproach. “Casualties of War” is also a brilliant film. One of the best Vietnam war films. Another director I need to catch up on. I haven’t seen over 50% of these films.
Wise Guys gets a bum.
Scarface re-entered public consciousness largely because of rap music i think, as unfortunate as that may be.
it’s a laughable movie.
Casualties Of War is average imo. Good idea, but the moral dilemmas were handled poorly imo, and Fox was miscast. Penn was in bad Deniro clone mode then too.
THE GREAT:
Blow Up
Carlito’s Way
Carrie
Sisters
The Untouchables
THE GOOD:
Raising Cain
Wise Guys
The Fury
Dressed to Kill
Body Double
Phantom of the Paradise
THE MEDIOCRE:
Obsession
Scarface
Mission Impossible
Get to Know Your Rabbit
Casualties of War
The Black Dahlia
THE BAD
Redacted
Bonfire of the Vanities
Snake Eyes
Mission to Mars
HAVEN"T SEEN:
Greetings
Hi, Mom!
Home Movies
Correction to the above post: “Blow Out” was made by De Palma, not “Blow-Up”, which was rather completed by Antonioni (in 1966).
^^I was going to correct that myself actually, but decided against it.
it’s bedtime for me! goodnight!
Scarface was very maligned when it first came out by almost every critic (with the exception of Ebert who gave it 4 our of 4 stars). Many people took it far too seriously instead of laughing at the sort of campy parody element to it, which was intentional on the filmmaker’s part. DePalma actually does have a very good sense of humor and he knew what he was doing when he created Scarface, just as he made an obvious homage/parody/sequel to it a decade later with Carlito’s Way, though it was a little bit too intentional and the sincere, overly nice Carlito wasnt nearly as endearing to audiences as the entertainingly sociopathic Tony Montana. Pacino considers it to be his greatest performance, and in many ways he’s right, its the character that he created that has made it one of the top cult films ever. Ive always considered Scarface to be an absolute masterpiece.
Then again, many people loved “Scent of a Woman”, and I think that was Pacino’s worst performance, and his Oscar for it was ridiculous and wrong.
^^I think the ‘parody’ aspect of it is partly based in truth, and partly based on revisionism.
If that’s not the case, why has Pacino expressed reservations about how the movie was received by the rap community and the younger generations? He said they love Tony, and therefore miss the point of the film. You aren’t supposed to ‘love him’. He is a complete scumbag.
Scarface is one of the most mediocre remakes ever made, one of the worst from a well-known director too. I still don’t get why is this film “cult” or however it’s called, especially from the mainstream rap community…
…but Mission to Mars is plain awful, could have been a camp space companion to Red Planet but DePalma was off his game with that astronaut tale…
Seriously though…Scarface beyond reproach? Really? People actually like that hackery?
The funny thing about the films that I gave 4 stars to above is, I love all of those films and have watched them many times, and I think DePalma did Hitchcock better than Hitchcock did, but each film has a scene or two that I didnt like, something that flawed it just enough to keep it from earning that 5th star.
“still don’t get why is this film “cult” or however it’s called, especially from the mainstream rap community…”
really? How can you not get how the average dipshit rap fan doesn’t like this film? ti’s a rags to riches story about a blowhard drug dealer that lived the American Dream from the outside, as a ‘renegade capitalist’. Rappers identify with it strongly because that’s how they see themselves. as renegade capitalists.
“and I think DePalma did Hitchcock better than Hitchcock did”
DePalma’s Dressed to Kill is a great homage to Hitchcock, much better than a few of his “acclaimed” U.S. films.
Can you honestly say though that Dressed to Kill as an original idea is superior to oh, I don’t know…Vertigo?
Come to think of it Joks, it does make sense since rap as well as pop and country in America are renegade-slash-music invested machineries, in addition to the “timelessness” that type of money-produced music it will eventually have in other nations and fans of those businesses.
Depalma was a dumbed down version of HItchcock at best. Good, but nowhere near the ‘real’ thing.
Well, that’s the same way that Clockwork Orange was basically a parody, and even though Alex is a repulsive character, it is acted with charm and charisma, and that’s the proper way because it is Alex telling his own story. So in his story, he’s the good guy and all the adults are bad. Some critics (most notably the generally clueless Pauline Kael) didnt get it, and accused Kubrick of wanting people to be “turned on” by the violence and sex in Clockwork Orange because it was so bouncy and fun to watch (due mostly to the soundtrack music). For the record, Ive never found the film “erotic” at all, but it is one of my favorites too.
The cult status for Scarface in the “rap” community isnt surprising, but its also not the film’s fault. When Kubrick had “CO” banned in England for decades because he was afraid of young British boys going droog-happy on the streets (or even worse going after him and his family), he was mistaken. It wasnt that film’s fault either, and the vast majority of people dont take their film love that far. Taxi Driver wasnt responsible for Reagan being shot, and Natural Born Killers wasnt responsible for Columbine. So Tony Montana is in the same group as Travis Bickle and Alexander DeLarge and Mickey Knox, not to mention Hannibal Lecter.
As for the term “beyond reproach”, I cant say that about any film, because Ive definitely reproached quite a few films that most people considered unreproachable, and even stuck up for some that are almost universally disliked. I think the majority now are fans of Scarface, for what that’s worth, lol.
“Scarface” has some camp to it but I don’t think it is intentionally parodic. Maybe a bit exaggerated but for all intents and purposes it’s a real street film. That’s why the hip-hop generation has embraced it. “Carlito’s Way” is also far from parody, though it is homage. The film is very serious and there is very little humor in it. It’s a much darker film than “Scarface”, more cynical. A neo-noir.
Tony is not a complete scumbag. He’s very likeable. He is presented as someone with a certain moral code that he will not swerve from. And remember, he is presented as an anti-communist, which couldn’t have made him wholly-despicable in America during the height of the Cold War. Maybe he’s one of the most likeable (or magnetic) villains in the history of cinema. He also has a strange humility and a self-awareness that the hip-hop generation loves, and would love to aspire to. “All I have in this world is my balls and my word, and I don’t break them for nobody.” Would that life and an approach to life be so simple for many.
I agree that “Scarface” is an absolute masterpiece. It is utterly singular and memorable. I call it “beyond reproach” because it’s one of those rare films in history that so many hold dear to their heart for so many reasons that it is almost critic-proof. And it somehow has that magic touch that reached out to the public consciousness and imprinted itself there. It’s so much more than just a film. Tony Montana compared to Travis Bickle, Alex DeLarge, Mickey Knox, Hannibal Lector? There’s only one out of all those that people actually want to be, that people would actually want to model themselves after. Only one can communicate across generations and different segments. Only one is a cultural icon.
I love Hi, Mom!, Greetings, Blow Out, Dressed To Kill. For some reason I couldn’t stand Sisters. I think it’s a terrible film.
The Best: Get to Know Your Rabbit
The Worst: Redacted
“There’s only one out of all those that people actually want to be, that people would actually want to model themselves after. Only one can communicate across generations and different segments. Only one is a cultural icon.”
But again, this is the problem Al has with its following. That the get the wrong message out of it.
It’s pretty sad that they admire him really.
“So Tony Montana is in the same group as Travis Bickle and Alexander DeLarge and Mickey Knox, not to mention Hannibal Lecter.”
Clockwork Orange is based on a legendary 20th century novella though and there’s a major difference between a copy of an original idea and a second adaptation of a book. Moreover, all those film characters are mentally twisted fucks and irregardless if Bickle had some political sense about what he was gonna do, fact remains…he was for the nuthouse…and that’s also one of the reasons most of those films actually…well, work out! DePalma and for the record, Stone’s own screenplay do NOT criticize Montana’s rise to capitalist fame. They glorify it to be honest and to an extent, it appears to me that Mr. Stone semi-glorifies the lust for blood in Natural Born Killers but there’s a better character development there from the supporting team to cover up his violent anarchy. Montana is NOT a psycho. He’s that same piece of manure like the IMF creeps who steal nations’ money just to profit more on their villas and yachts.
“Taxi Driver wasnt responsible for Reagan being shot, and Natural Born Killers wasnt responsible for Columbine.”
It would have been a joy if Taxi Driver were to inspire a Reagan assassination, it’s completely lunatic to place those two assumptions in one sentence like they’re the same thing. Yes, it WOULD have been miraculous if Reagan were to have died from…ANYONE. Yes, it WOULD have been unfortunate if Natural Born Killers were to have inspired the Columbine incident. Yes, there IS a conflict of interests between those two.
“I call it “beyond reproach” because it’s one of those rare films in history that so many hold dear to their heart for so many reasons that it is almost critic-proof.”
Really? I’ll be damned if a film about executive chauvinists like Mr. Montana serves as a film one can hold “dear to their heart” in order to…ummm, extract that same Montana “ambition”? For what it’s worth that is…
I thought rare films in history were films like Distant Thunder by Ray which criticized the debauchery of the economical intricacies in a poverty-stricken nation or I don’t know…maybe Euridice BA 2037 by Nikolaidis which present a woman’s psyche in her isolation with all those human fears and desires we’re afraid to reveal to one another.
I thought rare films in history don’t come off as “singular cases” but as plural as they can be and I certainly don’t think the rise and fall of a Coca Cola-bred misogynist is something to cherish upon.
Is it really so sad? Have people not been admiring movie stars and bad guy characters for ages now? I’m not sure why Pacino should think “Scarface” is some grand moral statement in which people must absorb a message. After all, doesn’t its very campiness undercut that? “Scarface” is not a cautionary tale and Pacino can’t play holier-than-thou. He’s made a living impersonating larger-than-life villains.
“Clockwork Orange is based on a legendary 20th century novella though and there’s a major difference between a copy of an original idea and a second adaptation of a book. Moreover, all those film characters are mentally twisted fucks and irregardless if Bickle had some political sense about what he was gonna do, fact remains…he was for the nuthouse…”
LOL, exactly Dim. Glad you saved me the trouble by pointing this out. Bickle is a complete nutjob. Nobody wants to be like him, and we, the audience, are not meant to identify with him either, that’s why so many people hate the film. They can’t be entertained watching a despicable character like that.
Of course one could argue that we can relate to his concern with the injustice of the world, but most of us could never make that ‘leap’.
I disagree about not being able to relate to Bickle. The loneliness he feels is palpable and the most powerful emotion that the film produces. I felt that loneliness and could understand it. His actions are less about injustice and more about trying to make a connection — though a nutjob he surely is.
“His actions are less about injustice and more about trying to make a connection "
i’ve never bought that explanation. The violence seemed to be the last recourse after being rejected by all and sundry.
But regardless, his loneliness is mostly self inflicted. I generally relate to loners but he is just crazy. not regular loner. nuts.
Anybody know when the rap/Scarface connection began? And with who? I didn’t start hearing about it until about 5 or 6 years ago, but I really don’t listen to rap so don’t know if it was going on before that.
As far as DePalma, never been able to get into him. Only seen Scarface, Black Dhalia, Untouchables, Carlito’s Way, Mission Impossible and parts of Carrie and Body Double. They all had certain aspects that I enjoyed, but as a whole, I just never found any of them to work (though I would like to go back and watch Carrie all the way through). Maybe I should try some of his lesser known works, like Sisters and Blow Out.
“Anybody know when the rap/Scarface connection began? And with who? I didn’t start hearing about it until about 5 or 6 years ago, but I really don’t listen to rap so don’t know if it was going on before that.”
probably with the rapper Scarface in the early 90’s ;-) hehhee.
Now let’s watch Scarface park his car for another 20 minutes.
I don’t agree with the sentiment that audiences aren’t supposed to identify with Bickle, or any of the listed characters for that matter. Each and every one of those characters is designed for the audience to either admire or identify with some aspect of their personality, with the arguable exception of DeLarge.
Admiration and identification are generally used for different purposes, but the idea remains the same: it brings the audience closer to the character. Admiration is generally used for purposes of entertainment and characterization. Villains can be made “fun” through admiration. If we can find something to admire in a villain, then we can delight in certain moments with them. Additionally, villains with something we can admire often appear more…villainous.They feel somehow superior, which allows for the creation of tension and fear. Lecter is a prime example on all fronts. We find ourselves grinning at his wit, enjoying every intelligent word that seethes from him. What is frightening about the character is not that he’s a primal beast, capable of anything. It’s that he’s a primal beast, capable of anything and smarter than any of us. (Beyond all that, audiences often admire his “moral code”, which I think is slightly more complicated than perhaps belongs here.) As for identification, that’s not an alien concept. In terms of the characters mentioned previously, I would argue that it serves to subvert the audience and evoke a reaction from anyone who stops to think about it. I’ll illustrate with Bickle.
If all audiences were completely unable to identify with Travis Bickle, Taxi Driver would be nothing more than a shock piece. Perhaps some of you feel that’s an adequate description. Personally, I don’t. By writing sympathetic traits into Travis’ personality, Schrader forced the film’s “point” and subsequent critical readings to be reliant upon the reactions of audience members themselves, their cognitive dissonances and convictions, leading to the creation of a film capable of evoking multiple interpretations. I think it’s fair to say that a bizarre sort of cinematic catharsis is found in the film for some. I think it’s forced some to re-examine themselves, perhaps out of guilt. I might even be coaxed into arguing for the film as instigation for social activism (though it manifests on celluloid as social angst). Taxi Driver is undoubtedly an angry born from a personal place that criticizes the individual, the world he or she inhabits, and the relationship between the two. That’s all very inherent to humanity, albeit from a cynical perspective. If an audience member can’t identify with Travis, they can’t fully experience his world. Thus, a great many sympathetic traits emerge with which we may or may not identify:
- Shame
- Social awkwardness
- The feeling of being unable to affect your environment
- Failure with women
- Fear
- Stasis
- Weakness/Vulnerability
- Alienation
- Inadequacy
- Loneliness
- etc.
None of that is to say he isn’t batshit crazy or that he doesn’t do despicable things; just that we can relate to him. There are things in him that are in each of us, and. to me, that elevates the film above a character study to an endlessly open-ended question.
In regards to Scarface, I would probably argue that the criticisms of the film are aimed at the system(s) that allow Tony to thrive, and that Tony was constructed as a (somewhat/arguably) sympathetic protagonist (in as much as the audience does root FOR him) because we couldn’t have spent the full film with him were he otherwise. I sympathize with the idea that Tony Montana has become a tragically misconstrued pop icon, but I also think it’s one encouraged by DePalma and Stone, whether intentional or not I’ve no clue. Not that that validates the character as the violent icon it is, but I think it removes the onus (in part) from this bizarre, misguided “rap culture” that some seem to be (mis)conceptualizing.
Subterranean Cinema
(number indicates my “star rating”)
THE GOOD
Greetings (4)
Hi, Mom! (4)
Sisters (4)
Obsession (4)
Carrie (4)
The Fury (4)
Dressed to Kill (4)
Home Movies (3)
Blow Out (4)
Scarface (5)
Body Double (4)
The Untouchables (4)
Carlito’s Way (4)
Mission Impossible (4)
Redacted (3)
THE BAD
Get to Know Your Rabbit (2)
Phantom of the Paradise (2)
Wise Guys (2)
Casualties of War (1)
Bonfire of the Vanities (2)
Raising Cain (2)
Snake Eyes (2)
Mission to Mars (2)
The Black Dahlia (2)