Definitely a difference, but it’s probably subjective. I remember being really annoyed at how Up! started with the heartbreak without really resonating just so it could deviate into a goofy plot with talking dogs and a mad pilot.
I think Red Balloon might be the greatest tearjerker of all time. It’s just about impossible not to react to it. The best of Disney too (Dumb, Bambi, Pinnochio- even though the first 2 are really manipulative).
Recently……I was kind of surprised by Hugo. I really didn’t like where it was going, but then it built itself around Melies’ sense of loss (and juxtaposed it with the dad being a dreamer). It’s possibly too much info for a kid, but I definitely teared up.
There is certainly a difference but children’s movies are often broad because children do not think in subtle terms. Old Yeller and Bambi and Benji are quite broad in their dramatic moments. The subtle moments stay with a kid and eventually the kid gets it. I would like to hear from a kid who liked Hugo,a kid’s film made for adults, my inner child was bored (possibly to tears).
I think it’s about credibility, the cheap manipulation comes in situations which are not realistic and feelings are exaggerated, a good example is the most popular film by Benigni, kind of film which can also be seen as propaganda, something i don’t like, i ask for sincereness first of all.
That’s interesting I find Benigni utterly sincere.
Sometimes it has to do with loud dramatic music when I was really little I remember walking out of an Ernest film at a big music swelling scene in tears, telling my mom the campers are too mean to Ernest.
My 11 year old niece watched Speak (because it had Kristen Stewart) but she was moved and got a lot out of it. It all depends on the kid (tho I guess that goes without saying).
I mean basically the type of movie Life is beautiful represents, I’m not one of those who hates the man just because he is an enthusiastic. Saving Private Ryan could be another example for me.
Den is right. The main difference between ‘cheap’ sentimentality and poignancy in relation to children’s movies and melodramas made for adults would be the broadness and subtlety of the emotions on display.
If Only Yesterday is as subtle as children’s movie’s emotions get, then something like Steel Magnolias would be as broad as emotions get in adult melodramas.
And it’s not necessarily related to realism. Naruse, for example, was specifically working in an almost anti-realistic form, but his subtlety is unmatched in cinematic history. Even in children’s movies; Miyazaki is by far the more realistic between him and Takahata. Miyazaki draws surroundings to almost photorealism, but Takahata is the one that goes for more difficult to define emotional landscapes, in a much more expressionistic setting (the aforementioned Only Yesterday and My Neighbor the Yamadas).
Usually when I accuse a film of ‘cheap’ sentimentality, it’s when a film falls back on emotional paradigms rather than emotions specific to the character.
Like, character B dumps character A. Am I sad because I am personally invested in the specific situation or just because breakups are sad in general?
Character B murders character A. Am I horrified because the murder made sense in the bad guy’s evil plan, or is it just some arbitrary murder to demonstrate how evil the bad guy is?
The standard I use to differentiate maudlin sentimentalism from genuine emotional resonance is, does the film earn its payoff? Are we invested in the emotional moment through quality storytelling or are we being asked to have a pavlovian response to a particular plot manipulation. Vintage Disney, Pixar, and Spielberg have proven very skilled at earning their emotional payoffs. Something like Coppola’s Jack would be an example of one that does not.
I think there is something to Den and Faderal’s observation about broadness and subtlety. Nada brings up The Red Balloon, and I think the poignancy is lot more subtle than Disney films—including some of the better ones like, Pinocchio or Dumbo. Dumbo isn’t subtle at all and it’s very manipulative, imo. Brad’s point about earning the payoff resonates with me, but I’m not sure that applies to Dumbo. I don’t think the film earns it’s emotional moments, but my feeling is that the moments are somewhat satisfying because of the way the film integrates the mother-child love with Dumbo’s “defect” and the way the “defect” becomes the very source of Dumbo’s triumph and salvation.
Then again, maybe I’m not thinking of “broad” and “subtle” in the way others are using it. Can we be a little more specific about what we mean by the two?
@Nada
Definitely a difference, but it’s probably subjective. I remember being really annoyed at how Up! started with the heartbreak without really resonating just so it could deviate into a goofy plot with talking dogs and a mad pilot.
The second half was weak and even more disappointing because that opening silent moment was so effective.
@Brad
Are we invested in the emotional moment through quality storytelling or are we being asked to have a pavlovian response to a particular plot manipulation. Vintage Disney, Pixar, and Spielberg have proven very skilled at earning their emotional payoffs.
The quality of storytelling is where I think some of Pixar’s films fail. The poignant moments feel tacked on. Part of this involves the quality of the premise and the way the film integrates the emotional moments into the narrative. Are those moments an organic part of a strong narrative (which is probably what you mean)? I think this is true for something like the first Toy Story film and possibly the second film. The premise is very interesting, imo, and the emotional moments are organically a part of the narrative.
Agreed Jazz, but I think that’s the problem with Pixar in general. Take them past a short running time and the result is a big long chase sequence. I felt warmly towards the first 30 minutes of Wall-E and then it’s just a chase on a spaceship. I will say that the characters were more endearing there, perhaps because it didn’t suffer from “Spot the Voice Actor” syndrome.
I agree that I probably shouldn’t have used Dumbo as an example. Replace it with Peter Pan maybe? An issue is that much of Disney is taken from Fairy Tales or Grimm’s Tales or Hans Christian Andersen. All of whom are sadistically manipulative, particularly Andersen (who can be a sick bastard). Many of these tales were supposed to function as cautionary tales for kids and so have a message. In that sense, they’re very broad indeed.
I’m a little confused about the premise of this thread. The thread title refers to “Children’s Movies”. Are you saying that Dumbo and Pinnochio are children’s movies? I don’t view these films (or really any classic Disney) as children’s movies( though obviously they are generally considered to be child friendly). Or are you referring to the child as the audience, and whether children are being manipulated?
Regardless, I think that Dumbo, Pinnochio and most classic Disney are deserving of their poignant moments.
“Replace it with Peter Pan maybe?”
Maybe it’s been a while since I’ve seen it, but I don’t really recall any big emotional moments in Peter Pan, especially not comparable to Dumbo, Pinnochio or Bambi.
Good point. Snow White, then? The apple scene is pretty powerful still.
@Nada
Agreed Jazz, but I think that’s the problem with Pixar in general. Take them past a short running time and the result is a big long chase sequence.
You may have a point there.
@Captain
Are you saying that Dumbo and Pinnochio are children’s movies? I don’t view these films (or really any classic Disney) as children’s movies( though obviously they are generally considered to be child friendly).
Yeah, I would classify the two as children’s films. Why do you disagree with that?
Early Disney films were intended as children’s films, weren’t they? I think it’s just our current culture has infantilized anyone under 13, so things we thought were okay for kids back then are now considered not okay for kids.
The whole ET walkie-talkie debacle is proof of this.
It’s definitely related to how much the film earns its emotional payoff, but it’s also definitely related to how specific the emotions are to the character. A good litmus test is, could this emotion only have been generated by this specific character, or could it be generated by just any character in the same situation?
I would put Pixar movies in the ‘specific’ category.
@Jirin
Early Disney films were intended as children’s films, weren’t they?
I would say so, especially the animated films (although I would guess most of the early live-action films were basically geared toward children as well).
I think it’s just our current culture has infantilized anyone under 13, so things we thought were okay for kids back then are now considered not okay for kids.
Wait. I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Are you saying that some people don’t think older Disney films are appropriate for young children? (What was the E.T. debacle involving the walkie-talkies?)
A good litmus test is, could this emotion only have been generated by this specific character, or could it be generated by just any character in the same situation?
I don’t know about this. Take Dumbo and Finding Nemo. You’re talking about a child being separated from a parent. I think that would any character could make the scenes emotionally compelling. But I’m not sure that means the films the films went for cheap sentimentality.
Wait. I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Are you saying that some people don’t think older Disney films are appropriate for young children? (What was the E.T. debacle involving the walkie-talkies?)
In the E.T. rerelease a few years ago they CGI’d out all the guns and replaced them with walkie-talkies.
And yes, there are some people who don’t think children should see Bambi’s mother die, and particularly the last sequence in Fantasia.
I don’t know about this. Take Dumbo and Finding Nemo. You’re talking about a child being separated from a parent. I think that would any character could make the scenes emotionally compelling. But I’m not sure that means the films the films went for cheap sentimentality.
But, you’re not sad because a child has been separated from his parent. You’re sad because that child was separated from that parent.
In the E.T. rerelease a few years ago they CGI’d out all the guns and replaced them with walkie-talkies.
Oh, I didn’t know that.
And yes, there are some people who don’t think children should see Bambi’s mother die, and particularly the last sequence in Fantasia.
The “Ave Maria” sequence? Or the “Bald Mountain” one? I can’t recall what was objectionable in the “Ave Maria” sequence.
Hmm, I wonder if this is why Captain asked if Dumbo and Pinocchio were children’s films.
But, you’re not sad because a child has been separated from his parent. You’re sad because that child was separated from that parent.
That’s not always easy to tell, though, although, fwiw, I don’t think I could say the specific characters made Little Nemo poignant.
I haven’t seen Fantasia since I was a kid, but specifically I saw somebody complain about a ‘satanic ritual’.
Oh, that’s the “Bald Mountain” scene. (The big demon makes these little demons dance.) Yeah, I can see some religious parents object to that.
Jazzaloha
I recently watched Brave, Disney’s Pinocchio and Dumbo. I was surprised by the emotionally touching moments in these films, sometimes making me tear up—especially the last two films, which I haven’t seen since I first saw them as a young child. Why do these films tend to evoke tears from viewers? And is there a difference between cheap manipulation and emotionally touching moments that cinephiles would approve of?