In terms of being a “prototypical”-noir film, I would say the first thing that comes to mind would be Double Indemnity. It may be one of the more well-known films within film-noir, but if you break down all the elements and ideas of noir films, I find that there are few other films that represent film-noir as well as Double Indemnity.
Though I wouldn’t say it is my favorite noir film, I’m more partial to Notorious, Touch of Evil, The Third Man and others.
great choice. i’d pick “out of the past” as my exemplary noir.
it’s got it all. adapted from a hard-boiled source, the private eye protagonist (mitchum’s eyes alone spell “film noir”), a great femme fatale, non-linear narrative structure, doom-laden voice-over narration, cynical, terse dialogue, shadowy, expressionist cinematography, the big city as iconographic setting, violence, and a downbeat conclusion.
“double indemnity” is a brilliant film, maybe even better than “out of the past”. but where “out of the past” trumps it, i think, is the inclusion of a great hard-boiled detective played by robert mitchum. this extra addition, in combination with all the other elements, makes it the textbook example of classic film noir, to me.
Not to split hairs, well, actually, to split hairs, I figure noir ended with Touch of Evil, putting it from 1940-1958.
If I had to offer up one as an example I’d agree with Bobby Wise, in that Out of the Past is absolutely perfect, and it’s influence is still being felt to this day (A History of Violence, anyone?). However, I don’t think it’s more prototypical then Double Indemnity, as Indemnity included an insurance salesman, which I think is another one of the main occupations of noir protagonists.
Other great noirs: This Gun For Hire, The Narrow Margin, Killer Bait, The Man Who Cheated Himself, The Night Has A Thousand Eyes, Lady From Shanghai, and the list goes on. and on. and on.
no, let’s definitely split hairs! it’s great to exchange ideas and discuss specifics, for me at least.
i can’t call “touch of evil” the end of noir. which is why i expand the boundaries of the cycle to 1960. “odds against tomorrow” by robert wise in 1959 is maybe the last of the great classic films noir. and also – though i know this is controversial – i have to cite hitchcock’s “psycho” in 1960. true, it maybe falls within the genre of the horror film. but film noir was always trans-generic, and “psycho” is more suspense thriller than horror. “psycho” has the look, mood, and feel of classic film noir. besides that, it feels like the curtain call for low-budget, black and white B-film thrillers (the basic nature of classic film noir). B-films almost became aestheticized, and certainly became big business, with “psycho”. for these reasons, i like to call “psycho” the bookend of classic film noir.
I am a great fan of film noir and can’t control my enthusiasm about it.
So, here a few titles in not order:
The Killers, Robert Siodmak
Phantom Lady, Robert Siodmak
Criss Cross, Robert Siodmak
Double Indemnity, Billy Wilder
On Dangerous Ground, Nicholas Ray
In a Lonely Place, Nicholas Ray
The Lady from Shanghai, Orson Welles
Laura, Otto Preminger
Where the Sidewalks End, Otto Preminger
Road House, Jean Negulesco
Out of the Past, Jacques Tourneur
The Asphalt Jungle, John Huston
Murder My Sweet, Edward Dmytryck
They Live by Night, Anthony Mann
Side Street, Anthony Mann
Crossfire, Edward Dmytryck
Born to Kill, Robert Wise
The Narrow Margin, Richard Fleischer
Lady in the Lake, Robert Montgomery
No Way Out, Joseph L. Mankiewicz
Scarlett Street, Fritz Lang
The Woman in the Window, Fritz Lang
The Big Heat, Fritz Lang
Sudden Fear, David Miller
Brute Force, Jules Dassin
The Naked City, Jules Dassin
The Big Sleep, Howard Hawks
White Heat, Raoul Walsh
This Gun for Hire, Frank Tuttle
The Blue Dahlia, George Marshall
and others
And my favorite pre-noir: High Sierra, Raoul Walsh.
And I agree: the perfect example of film noir is “Out of the Past”.
I think everyone’s idea of film noir is different, hence some people’s demands that Taxi Driver and it’s ilk be included, but in my opinion film noir has a thematical interest in the idea of corruption, the good becoming bad, usually a man tainted by a woman, although not always that gender specific (hence the reason that not every film noir has to have a femme fatale, etc), thus I’d exclude Psycho. However, I agree with you on Odds Against Tomorrow. I’d forgotten that was ’59. Maybe I just liked the theatrics of Touch of Evil ending the quote unquote movement. Ha.
The Maltese Falcon is the definitive film noir. It lives up to the hype. I don’t know what the prototypical noir is, though. I would have to give that a lot more thought. I Am a Fugitive From a Chain Gang, White Heat, The Sweet Smell of Success, The Third Man, In a Lonely Place… These are all incredible film noirs, but I wouldn’t call them prototypical. Also, what is and isn’t film noir can easily be debated. Is M a film noir? Is Night of the Hunter? They’re both bad ass movies, I can tell you that much, but I could understand someone arguing that they’re not noir. Personally, though, I would probably count them. What about Ace in the Hole? I get thrown off when noirs take place in areas that are not dark and urban. I suppose The Petrified Forest is like that, too, but I’ve always given it noir status…
In a Lonely Place is the perfect noir set outside of dark and gloomy settings. I love that movie so much. Good on you for bringing it up.
Favorite noirs:
Sunset Blvd. (the pinnacle of the genre, imo)
Ace in the Hole (2nd favorite)
Double Indemnity
Out of the Past
White Heat
Notorious
Strangers on a Train
The Big Heat (very underrated)
In a Lonely Place (ditto)
Gilda (ditto)
Brute Force (man I’m on a roll here)
And also Blast of Silence (1961) and Angels With Dirty Faces (1939 I think) even though some of you will throw that “It has to be 41-58” argument at me.
Angels With Dirty Faces always seemed more of a gangster flick to me, ditto with Blast of Silence, albeit a noir-influenced and low budget one.
Is it noir or is it gangster? One of the oldest arguments going, I guess. For me, White Heat is noir, because Cagney is such a dark, dark character, and the ending is so brutal, but a lot of people don’t think it fits. They say it’s gangster. The fact of the matter is, though, that noir is such an elastic term, when you consider that when people were making these films the term did not exist. So it sometimes seems noir is what some so-called expert says it is, and I’m not always sure his opinion is that much better than mine. Anyway, like I said, to me White Heat is noir.
I think Double Indemnity, The Postman Always Rings Twice and Kiss of Death are my favorites of the genre.
I think of “gangster” as a sub-section of noir. The Asphalt Jungle strikes me as a particularly gangster film, but it’s regarded as a seminal noir. A lot of 50s noirs are pretty gangster (or heist-oriented).
Man, Cagney’s acting performance in White Heat is phenomenal. Love that movie.
Interesting you should mention Asphalt Jungle. I’ve seen that listed in a whole other genre: the heist film, where a bunch of guys try to pull off a bank job, with a lot of attention paid to plotting and planning, and this in fact may well be the truth, because there were a lot of films taking that route back then.
But gosh, Huston’s characters are just pure noir — most of them real down and out, dark-side-of-city-life types who will each meet a tragic fate, and that ending, with Sterling Hayden driving with a hole in his stomach to get to that place in the country and virtually dying just as he enters the gates of paradise…well, life doesn’t get darker or more poetic, does it?
Sunset Blvd. is a magnificent piece of art and entertainment, Hollywood on Hollywood at its best. And the filme looks very noir. But it is really a film noir? Not sure about it.
Yeah, sure. Guns, femme fatale, fatalism, high key lighting…
“sunset blvd” is a classic film noir. it stands up to the test. the femme fatale, the cynical voice-over dialogue, from a dead man no less, the powerful downbeat conclusion, the non-linear narrative.
“the asphalt jungle” is also classic noir. one of the best. if only for one reason: that measuring stick for noir that is the most difficult to categorize and analyze — mood. the tone and mood of “the asphalt jungle” is so foreboding and depressing. there’s literally no extra-diagetic music in the film except for the opening credits and the closing sequence. it makes for a very sparse, downbeat, noirish feel.
i also think “the asphalt jungle” is actually the first true heist film. “the killing” owes a huge debt to it. as far as the heist film goes, it’s a sub-genre of the gangster film. and the gangster film is just one genre that noir cuts across (along with the thriller).
Why is The Killers (1946) not a true heist film?
Strangers on a Train is my favorite, however it is probably not the darkest of Noir but it is brilliant, and very daring for the time
I think there are many good suggestions.
It SHOULD BE SAID, that there are definitely tons of films that encapsulate elements and ideas from film-noir, so I don’t think you can exclude them right away from the discussion. But when I think of “prototypical” film-noir, Double Indemnity is definitely the one. Sunset Blvd and Out of the Past are the ones I think of next
@wilky61
because i think that the rules of the heist film are very basic and rigid, and “the killers” is much more than a heist film. a heist film has three specific acts, each one dealing with either the planning, execution, or aftermath of a heist. this is not the overall narrative concern of “the killers”. the heist in that film is just one section of the film. ditto for “white heat”.
ok. that was good for starters. next question. who’s your favorite femme fatale of all-time?
Hey Mark.. The Killers is one of the noir piece of resistence. Great film noir!
Go for the Criterion edition… including are The Killers, by Don Siegel (extraordinary) and the amazing short by Tarkovsky!
The Killing. Yes. Definitely. So good.
I would also like to back my own support of The Maltese Falcon. I was spot on when I mentioned it in my previous post.
I’ve seen The Killers many a time, what are the odds of stoping at the one gas station… I actually took a course on film Nior in college and The Killers was one of my favorites
Favorite femme fatale… oh that’s tough.
Barbara Stanwyck in Double Indemnity pretty much nails the prototype. I think of her as the quintessential femme fatale, but I really have to give a shout out to Rita Hayworth in “Gilda” also.
Of course, since I regard Sunset Blvd. as the greatest example of film-noir, then the breathtaking portrayal of Norma Desmond cannot be far down my list.
Sunset Blvd. is my vote for the best English language film ever filmed in black-and-white, by the way. I make the English language distinction due to Ingmar Bergman’s “Persona.”
Wilky61: damned right The Big Heat is underrated. A terrific, mean little film. I never looked at a pot of coffee the same way.
And I loved the relationship between Glenn Ford and that hot little wife of his who always stole his cigarettes.
Also, it had Gloria Grahame, hands down the easiest lay in all of film noir history. Not really the femme fatale, though; usually the hapless victim. Later perfectly cast in the adaptation of Ohlahoma, where she sang “I’m just a girl who cain’t say no…”
Ford’s wife in that was Brando’s sister, Jocelyn…liked her. Wondered why she didn’t act more.
Grahame was wonderful. I loved when she walked into the motel room w Ford and said. “Hey, lookit this: early nothin’”.
…and that nasty last line of the film: “wanna go get some coffee?” I mean, Jesus!
One of my favorites, Dark Passage, I think holds up to the best of them.
Bobby Wise
okay, all my noir junkies. where ya at? it’s time!
we’re talking about CLASSIC FILM NOIR here. not neo-noir, not retro-noir, not future-noir, not precursors to noir. CLASSIC FILM NOIR. from 1940-1960. it’s not a genre, it’s not a movement, it’s not a style. though maybe it encompasses some elements of all those categories. let’s call it a dark period within the history of hollywood cinema, and arguably the most beautiful.
what’s the prototypical classic film noir? if you can only offer one film as the strongest example of noir possible, what is it, and why?