Replace “superhero” with “horror” and “Nolan” with “Cronenberg” and the exact same conversation could’ve taken place.
“But a superhero movie, by definition, you know, it’s comic book. It’s for kids. It’s adolescent in its core.”
This is where I take issue.
I also don’t think anyone (that I’ve come across anyway) has or would refer to TDKR as “supreme cinema art”.
“Replace “superhero” with “horror” and “Nolan” with “Cronenberg” and the exact same conversation could’ve taken place.”
. . . and it probably did.
I’m not sure that superheroes preclude real art, but I do think Cronenberg has a point insofar as, to a certain degree, superhero films are limited by the economic demands, the limitations of the PG-13 rating, the fact of working within the limits of a pre-established character, and the need to structure the films so as to allow sequels, etc.
His comment about superheroes being for children, being adolescent in its core, could not be more true. I think its funny how such a nerdy childish thing evolved into something so mainstream that frat girls tweet about it.
My opinion isn’t a popular one I know. But its honest to god how I feel about superheroes in general. I’m a very open person too. I haven’t seen TDKR, but I did enjoy Batman Begins and TDK. I think Batman Begins is the best one because it isn’t as superheroish. But I am so bored by every other superhero film.
Horror can be just a limiting (in completely different ways). Really the same can said of any popular genre. That’s what genres do – create boundaries that most entries fall within and a some push the edges of. Of course, horror has much broader history, so there are less examples in the superhero genre, but The Dark Knight is a key one.
most horror films are childish garbage too.
was going to post this article yesterday but.figured it was pretty obvious.hehe.
This is disappointing to hear from Cronenberg – it’s never the “what” of the film that’s art, it’s the “how”. He’s entitled to his feeling and opinion on what is high art to him, but he misses the mark in this case.
That’s not to say Nolan’s Batman series is great art. It’s a periodically entertaining exercise in ambitious popcorn drama. It’s pseudo intellectual, but at least he puts in the effort to wow us on some level, successful high art or not.
Matt said, …I’m not sure that superheroes preclude real art, but I do think Cronenberg has a point insofar as, to a certain degree, superhero films are limited by the economic demands, the limitations of the PG-13 rating, the fact of working within the limits of a pre-established character, and the need to structure the films so as to allow sequels, etc.
Right, but that’s a really narrow definition of superhero movie. I think there’s a lot one could do in the genre, if one had the freedom and desire to do so. Alan Moore’s Watchmen (not the movie) is an example of this.
The Dark Knight was hideous; i won’t be watching the latest instalment. It’s childish lad mag stuff- let Total Film swoon away, such movie critics are morons.
Buck Fatman. A low-budget antidote to all the Hollywood bombast, hype and effects, tales told by idiots, full of sound and fury…David Bordwell has shown how Hollywood does it, for miniscule attention spans.
We look up to prime physical specimens, glorify Olympic athletes and sportsmen, while Ronald McDonald makes generations of couch potatoes. Edwin from Indonesia made a nice little short about the nasty RM. Too many film superheroes encourage fascist tendencies. Guns and violence, US obsessions. The struggle v evil, an axis of evil. Some like to point to ambiguity, the goodies and baddies are not in simple black and white. But the overall effect is pernicious.
If envy were phosphorescent, the world would not need electric power…..
I take issue with his comments too. It’s always been how it’s about, not what’s it about for me. And I agree that about 80% of Horror is pretty much childish crap as well, but a creative mind can turn it into art.
Not to assess Cronenberg (since he feels fit to asses Nolan), but he’s also made some pretty childish horror films as well as some fairly artistic departures in the genre. Maybe, it’s just that HE is uncapable of seeing an artistic comic book film.
Incidentally, I’m not a particularly big fan of Nolan’s “Bat Trilogy”, I just hate so-called Fina; Assessments from directors who should know better.
“most horror films are childish garbage too.”
Absolutely. Most FILMS aren’t very good, or very artistically ambitious.
“Alan Moore’s Watchmen (not the movie) is an example of this.”
To an extent, yeah. But even Watchmen is really just a postmodern critique/ridiculing/deconstruction of comic books, so it’s still dependent on that world and its conventions (if only to, for lack of a better term, f-ck with them).
Balistik didn’t quote the best part, toward the end Cronenberg says “as an actor, I would play Batman.”
Oh, and lastly, it’s kind of silly that the interviewer completely failed to mention A History of Violence, which is an adaption of John Wagner’s (the Judge Dredd dude) graphic novel.
Right, but that’s a really narrow definition of superhero movie. I think there’s a lot one could do in the genre, if one had the freedom and desire to do so. Alan Moore’s Watchmen (not the movie) is an example of this.
In a lot of ways it is a deconstruction of the medium itself which is why a film version was always going to be, at best, a near miss and at worst an abomination. I’m not sure I’d call it a superhero comic book because it reveals just how much Alan Moore dislikes superheroes and how useless he finds them to be even in a heightened comic book universe. Given how everyone has taken issue with his comments regarding comics being juvenile by definition there is really no need to defend them but the guy might want to check out Ghost World, Jimmy Corrigan, From Hell, Fun Home and any dozen other similar examples before making such a broad, sweeping generalization.
While I agree Nolan’s Batman films haven’t exactly elevated superheroes on the screen I can think of quite a few properties that, if handled properly, could manage to. Cronenberg himself might make a very good film based on The Maxx.
Takashi Miike’s ZEBRAMAN movies are art and they’re far more adolescent than American superhero movies.
From Hell?!?!? that Burton wannabe flick with Depp? that was hot garbage.
it is obvious that he is talking about superhero films. it is a fair generalisation when limited to that.
They are pretty silly, in a good way.
—DiB
^^^sure, and there is nothing wrong with that.
It’s a fair generalization, but it’s just weird hearing it from Cronenberg, since I’m sure a ton of people made the exact same comments about him and horror films, and since we all hoped he’d be smarter and nicer than that.
Any genre can be elevated, it’s just a matter of when.
From Hell?!?!? that Burton wannabe flick with Depp? that was hot garbage.
From Hell, that Alan Moore masterpiece for which he did what must have amounted to a PHD’s worth of research into turn of the century Whitechapel and the ripper murders. About 25% of the novel is annotations.
it is obvious that he is talking about superhero films. it is a fair generalisation when limited to that.
No, he is very explicitly talking about their source material. He is saying a superhero film cannot be art because the medium it draws inspiration from is inherently juvenile. Not only is this absolutely not true but juvenile and art aren’t even necessarily mutually exclusive categories. I wonder if he remembers that A History of Violence was a comic book.
A superhero is a juvenile concept but so is human-fly hybrid. It’s not the subject, it’s what you do with it.
Damn. Kenji shows his fangs.
FUUUUUUCK! First double post…
From Hell was done by the Hughes Brothers. Tim Burton was not involved.
I’m not surprised by Cronenberg’s reaction. Maybe there is a little self loathing in some of these comments. A lot of great artists often treat their medium with a degree of contempt.
Genre is only a staring point and it often comes from a place that’s not “elevated”.
It’s similar to food, sports writing, painting or whatever pursuit is being scrutinized.
>>A superhero is a juvenile concept but so is human-fly hybrid. It’s not the subject, it’s what you do with it<<
EXACTLY!
When I started reading this page I knew Alan Moore would come up, but what about Frank Miller, Mike Baron or los brothers Hernandez? “Heartbreak Soup” and “Mechanics” have no flying men in blue pantyhose, while “Nexus” does, but how many superheroes quote Chairman Mao? And how many adolescents would care?
Years ago, Howard Chaykin, in the letters page for “American Flagg” said that it was for adults, but he wasn’t worried about kids reading it because he didn’t think they would want to. Like the video games that have largely taken their place in childhood fantasy, there is a vast range of subject matter for every age and proclivity.
“Watchmen” should have been done as a TV series, with some way of including the epistolary matter.
@Matt and Hell
Matt said, To an extent, yeah. But even Watchmen is really just a postmodern critique/ridiculing/deconstruction of comic books, so it’s still dependent on that world and its conventions (if only to, for lack of a better term, f-ck with them).
Right. But why would this disqualify it from a superhero movie? Manipulating and altering a genre doesn’t really put the film outside the genre does it? Well, I don’t think it does.
I think Hal Haberman and Jeremy Passmore’s Special is another example of the way a genre can thoughtfully explore issues versus just a heroes and villians battling each other. It’s not a great film by any means, but the ideas have merit. Basically, I don’t think the genre is limited to the what Cronenberg is saying. Like horror, sci-fi or many other genres, it can be used to explore grown-up ideas and themes in creative ways.
I think that Alan Moore’s “Miracleman” (what if a fat married middle aged Billy Batson suddenly remembered that he was Captain Marvel) could make a good flick. It’s not as complete as the other story he did for Warrior Magazine, “V for Vendetta”, but some of the themes are fairly adult.
Some of Roger Zelazny’s early stuff was basically superhero stories in text form.
Cronenberg rightly criticizes Nolan.
Internet posters wrongly criticize Cronenberg. Did you guys read the interview, or even OP’s post?
I agree with Cronenberg but the same goes for him as well, hypocritical
BALISTIK
From an interview with Next Movie
David, you’ve done drama and horror. Some fairly formidable directors have branched out into superhero movies pretty beautifully —is that something you would consider doing?
DC: I don’t think they are making them an elevated art form. I think it’s still Batman running around in a stupid cape. I just don’t think it’s elevated. Christopher Nolan’s best movie is “Memento,” and that is an interesting movie. I don’t think his Batman movies are half as interesting though they’re 20 million times the expense. What he is doing is some very interesting technical stuff, which, you know, he’s shooting IMAX and in 3-D. That’s really tricky and difficult to do. I read about it in “American Cinematography Magazine,” and technically, that’s all very interesting. The movie, to me, they’re mostly boring.
Do you think the subject matter prohibits the elevated art form?
DC: Absolutely. Anybody who works in the studio system has got 20 studio people sitting on his head at every moment, and they have no respect, and there’s no…it doesn’t matter how successful you’ve been. And obviously Nolan has been very successful. He’s got a lot of power, relatively speaking. But he doesn’t really have power.
So that’s a no.
DC: I would say that’s a no, you know. And the problem is you gotta… as I say, you can do some interesting, maybe unexpected things. And certainly, I’ve made the horror films and people say, “Can you make a horror film also an art film?” And I would say, “Yeah, I think you can.”
But a superhero movie, by definition, you know, it’s comic book. It’s for kids. It’s adolescent in its core. That has always been its appeal, and I think people who are saying, you know, “Dark Knight Rises” is, you know, supreme cinema art," I don’t think they know what the f**k they’re talking about.