But, I don’t think the film reinforces those quotes. I think it undercuts them. Deniro dies, Pacino is essentially dead in spirit.
Al Pacino’s performance is admittedly the film’s wild card, often to its detriment.
I do agree with you, Matt, about Thief. I think it’s his most immature film (that being said, I still think it’s excellent). There’s a film that reinforces its hero’s Mannliness.
“But, I don’t think the film reinforces those quotes. I think it undercuts them. Deniro dies, Pacino is essentially dead in spirit.”
Yeah, I agree with that read, but to me, even though he’s really undercutting, that stuff still sits clunky and overt on the surface of the film to be modulated in a completely effective way. Part of the problem for me is that Pacino’s and Deniro’s line readings are too naturalistic and in earnest to allow the cliches to float on the surface of the film the way Mann seems to want them to.
I don’t know if he just wants them to float on the surface as cliches, though. The earnesty feels necessary, and even personal (I get the same vibes from all of his best films). Though Mann seems to use his characters more often than not as warnings, I really think he identifies with them. Of course, I have no idea what he’s like in person, so I’m talking out of my ass. Either way though, the earnesty of the quotes enhances the tragedy of the film. I said somewhere else: “Man’s characters are masters of self-delusion.” They really believe what they say, even though they cant live by it in the end.
Heat — 1 vs. Dealer — 0
Something about Pacino when he goes stark raving over the top.
Michael Mann (Heat ) — 1 vs. Benedek Fliegauf (Dealer) —0
Dealer was fantastic but Heat is one of the best genre films of all time.
the best scene from Heat (used to great effect on TMZ often). I think all Pacino does to stay in shape is emote and tan.
Michael Mann (Heat ) —0 vs. Benedek Fliegauf (Dealer) —1
Heat is just ordinary, predictable crime drama with too many cliches. Pacino’s acting is irritating and … yes, that’s it. And Dealer is one of the best European movies from the last decade.
Heat-1, Dealer-0
@ Jack Man’s characters are masters of self-delusion. They really believe what they say, even though they cant live by it in the end.
Mann re The Big Heat:
….will break all boundaries with his independent value system & will go up into the face of authority. That kind of hero influenced my early work: clarity & simplicity of choice – don’t be safe, don’t conform – you have your own authentic internalized hard won morality.
One can’t live by don’t be safe, don’t conform.
Heat-1, Dealer-0
Here’s the current score I come up with:
Dealer – 12
Heat – 7
This is one of the matches I feel stronger about. Come on Dealer! Keep that lead!
I think I could never love such kind of films. Maybe I can just feel a sympathy. But I have to admit that Heat is one of its best in its own area….
Heat (Michael Mann): 0 —vs— Dealer (Benedek Fliegauf): 1
Meh.
Heat – 1 vs. Dealer – 0
How did Jack get to manage two directors?
It was an administrative error that no one contested and I only noticed when it was too late >.<
Sorry :(
Take consolation in the fact that neither will come close to winning.
No problem. I wasn’t sure if Jack is/was a former member with a new name.
Dealer – 13
Heat – 8
“Take consolation in the fact that neither will come close to winning.”
Good films, though.
Michael Mann (Heat ) —0 vs. Benedek Fliegauf (Dealer) —1
Michael Mann (Heat ) —0 vs. Benedek Fliegauf (Dealer) —1
Michael Mann (Heat) – 1 vs. Benedek Fliegauf (Dealer) – 0
I enjoy Heat a great deal. Part of this is probably due to the fact that this came out when I was a teenager. I took the day off from school to go see the first showing at my local movie theater. I’ve watched it countless times since. I don’t even like Mann’s stuff in general. But this one . . . It’s an undeniable fact that it’s just one of those movies for me.
I just finished Dealer. And it was pretty good.
“I don’t even like Mann’s stuff in general.”
Yeah, Heat is generally the one that most appeals to non-fans. Why is that?
They can spell the title.
The Insider might be my favorite.
Yeah, Heat is generally the one that most appeals to non-fans. Why is that?
They can spell the title.
Nobody likes you, House ;).
Why does Heat appeal to me when the rest don’t? All I can say is what appeals to me about it. It’s a formula, sure, but it’s handled really well. Every time I watch it, I’m really impressed by the weight of each action and character, and how they go together. Such as Al Pacino’s character. In one instance, he’s consoling a mother who has just lost her daughter in a rather grisly crime. He absorbs that blow, seemingly, anyway. In another, he’s got a seriously unstable stepdaughter who he handles with as much maturity as you can expect. When Diane Venora, though, is caught screwing Bill or Ted or Bob or whatever his name was, he freaks out about the guy watching his TV. That build-up, blow-up, dichotomy, however you want to classify it, was always interesting to me.
Then there’s the super-duper crime team. I think this is where the movie really makes it’s mark. The crime team is not slick, although they are professional. They are not monstruous, but they will take whatever action necessary (and that shoot-out in the middle of the street is great). They are simply dudes doing their jobs, and furthermore, their lives (at least Kilmer’s and DeNiro’s) are shown to be as reasonably normal as their police counterparts are. So what’s the difference? That idea still appeals to me. They don’t all have to have “a born to lose tattoo on my chest knocking over liquor stores”.
So, for all of whatever I just said there, I really like the script and the ideas it presents. A lot. I’m not saying it’s terribly original, so don’t mistake that. I just like the way this version of the formula is presented, from top to bottom.
They don’t like me. They llllooooooove me ;)
So since I voted for Dealer here’s a little love for Heat, which is a film I love and can watch any time:
As heist flicks go, this is top-tier. It takes its characters seriously and gives them plenty of time to live and breathe. The DeNiro/Pacino dynamic is not the most interesting aspect of the film for me, hyped though it was. But the characters all make believable decisions for complex reasons that feel true for each of them, from the leads down to the fry cook/getaway driver.
There are no happy endings for any of the characters in this film. The criminals we expect to come to bad ends, but the film goes to great lengths to show how damaging being a top homicide detective can be. I can’t imagine living that life, to be honest—always on call, always examining the very worst of humanity, unable to share that side of your life with a family (almost unable to have a family), and constantly fighting a fight that is ultimately unwinnable.
Now, let’s talk about the set pieces. Some of the best-staged heist moments in all of cinema—one so effectively produced that it spawned a real-life and nearly successful bank robbery that ended badly for many involved. The action is shot for the most part without a score, which heightens every blast, every hit. Contrast that with effective but more cartoonish heist scenes in Point Break, for example.
I love me some Heat and I wish it well. As I stated in my vote post I very much wanted to side with it in this match.
15-9 Dealer up to date
How many hours left in the match? Would like to vote in this one…
5 hours and 40 minutes left Adam :)
Robert W Peabody III
I’m alone, I am not lonely.
So tren de garsas was riffing on the film when she said: i’ve never felt so lonely in my voting choices….