By the way, I also thought that Camera Buff would have been the perfect counter-argument to Stan Brakhage—any film of his. That too would have been an interesting match-up.
—PolarisDiB
PolarisDiB – Is it possible at a later time or so to hear why you do like Punishment Park as much as you seem to do? I confess I do hold it with some regard, but I am interested to hear your opinion on this thread or another.
I saw Punishment Park a few years back in a film history class when we were discussing political filmmaking and subversive 70s cinema. When I heard what it was about, I thought it sounded fantastic and I was eager to see it. The problem is it really and honestly is too extreme for me. I think the fear, paranoia, hatred, and pain the movie emits is not just what you feel for the characters but what you actually, palpably feel from the filmmakers—Watkins, mostly. And as much as evil exists in this world, horrible people do horrible things to each other, and this movie is not necessarily outside the bounds of reality, I felt like the hatred the film had for some people was too much, and too dangerous. I got the strong and palpable sense from Punishment Park that if Watkins was given control, he would similarly abuse his powers, the way he treats and represents his villians—just as he has them not see the people they punish as human, I do not believe he saw them as human either. It was terrifying to watch in that way, not in the way it intended.
—PolarisDiB
The dialog in Punishment Park was almost completely improvised and was the actor’s own feelings. They weren’t playing parts they were saying what they felt. I thought it was brilliant.
Hmm. In a way, that does not really change my perspective that much. If the actors playing the villians honestly thought that that was the reality behind those characters, it speaks to the hatred shared by everyone involved in the production, in my humble opinion. I mean, there are examples of people like that, McCarthy et al, the world is full of monsters, but it was the “this is what they all represent” nature of the “documentary” that made me feel like there was something equally as monstrous in what the document was saying.
—PolarisDiB
28-27 War
I found it a brutally honest representation of those times and a great document for a class.
It is a brutally honest representation of the times—and how much even those who expounded virtues like peace and love were full of their own amount of fear and hatred. My problem with it is that they tried to make it reality; it is, in fact, a documentary, but what is documented is the point for both sides of the issue, not just theirs.
—PolarisDiB
Camera Buff — 1 vs The War Game — 0
This is a ridiculously easy one for me.
Camera Buff follows a man who bought a film camera to record his newborn daughter as she grows up. Slowly though he finds himself more and more caught up in wanting to create films leaving his wife lonely and hurting. It is a film about many things, though principly obsession. How obsession can blind logic, and about its ability to destoy. Even as it gives meaning to someone’s life it can all the same make them forget the meaning that was already there. You can also apply all this to art as just as making films gives Filip happiness so too does it make him forget the happiness he used to have and what he used to want (indeed what his wife still wants).
As per usual Kieslowski doesn’t approach themes in black and white and explores the themes he approaches as fully as possible. He looks at the responsibility of filmmakers, at censorship from investors, at famlial responsibilities, at how passions can quickly define someone, how they think and act, at that duel between art and love which I find so fascinating (The Red Shoes is one of my very favourite films after all). Also as with most of Kieslowski’s stuff it has that rich humanity to it and it looks great even if less striking than many of his other films.
Perhaps my only complaint is one that I feel a bit unfair about levying seeing as I can entirely understand why the film is set up as it is. As the film continues the wife is constantly shoved to the periphary just as Filip constantly shoves her to the periphary as he obsesses over his art, yet she was the character I was most interested in and the tragic nature of the relationship between her and Filip was so beautifully and movingly handled that whenever the film focused on Filip’s filmmaking for any length of time I found myself itching for the film to get to the next relationship scene. As I say, I understand why the film is structured like it is, it just doesn’t suit me entirely. Still certainly a rather great film.
Now for The War Game. You might want to look away now as no doubt I’m about to make a fool of myself, complete arse that I am.
Winning the Best Documentary award at the Oscars back when it was released and upholding high status until nowadays among those who remember it The War Game is almost universally regarded as a bold, brutal, brilliant piece of filmmaking. Certainly there are moments of boldness, moments that are brutal but as a whole the film feels more like a public service announcement than anything genuinely brilliant and the scattering of powerful moments owe as much to the naturally emotive subject matter as they do to any skill in the presentation of said subject matter.
I guess probably the worst thing I can say about the film is that during the opening few minutes there was genuinely a bit of me wondering whether this was meant to be a mockumentary or something – when the people look to the camera to explain how they felt about certain things, or to answer questions about radioactivity I, at one point, even laughed (it had the same sort of tone to it in those early speaking to the camera scenes as some incredibly sharp piece of satire). Suffice it to say the acting is frequently shoddy and any bits where characters speak to the camera early in the film feel clunky at best (in a script riddled with clunkiness) and later on in the film detract from any horror the film is presenting (“oh right, whilst mayhem is going on we’ll just turn round and talk to this random photographer who is walking around recording things for some absurd reason”).
The film is incredibly didactic as a narrator – a particularly awful narrator it must be said – spends a lot of the time reading exactly what would happen in this situation in a manner that seems to be trying to tell us exactly what to think. Sure there’s only one thing you can think about nuclear war, but that doesn’t change that the film is pretty much shouting at us. And if it has to shout us then surely there’s a more effective way than this sort of hodge-podge approach the film takes – what about a more conventional documentary approach letting scientists air their opinions more, instead of telling us for the nth time that “THIS WILL HAPPEN IF THERE IS NUCLEAR WAR!!!” and showing us for the nth time that the general public doesn’t know all that much about nuclear war (really? your average joe doesn’t know what that certain radioactive isotope does? shock, horror, there’s a surprise!).
Certainly effecting at points, certainly informative, and interesting from the perspective of a historical document, but I really do not get this film at all. Sorry :(
Ah, DiB, I see what you’re saying. In as much as the goal was to make it a reality they did fail since it’s a one-sided story with clear-cut villains. But I don’t think it’s a documentary at all—I’d call it an activist film, and I think an effective one.
Now I’m going to read Cecil’s post.
I know that Punishment Park is an activist film. One of my primary concerns about is is that as an activist film, it did affect my thinking back when I saw it significantly—it made me second guess the motivations of activists. You may think that is silly or weird, but it was a huge thing for me at that point in my life: are activists activists because they are acting towards a certain solution ? Or are they activists because they’re scared ?
I saw this during the same time that everyone was complaining about how Bush was using the media to “keep people afraid so that they’ll trust him.” If the criticism operates one way with Bush (and other conservatives), could not the same principle apply to the left?
In a way I guess I could say I owe a debt to Punishment Park. It helped solidify my already moderate mentality to a political independence I refuse to give up. It also is one of the factors that made me aware that I should never, ever let fear convince me to take an action without reason. That should speak highly for Punishment Park, being so effective, except that that effectiveness came not from Punishment Park’s message, but from its mistakes.
—PolarisDiB
Oh, absolutely, which is why I stated it failed as a representation of reality. I’m a student of the 60s, so I’ve been all up and down both sides of the issues and recognize activism from both sides when I see it.
I’ve found that if you spend too much time to the far left or right of any position eventually you have to realize you’re buying into one form of propaganda or another, since so few things are black and white.
Right, but in this case the issue is not just propaganda, it’s the emotive quality of the film that I emphasize. I have never had any other situation in my life where I wished the word “hateful” was taken more literally by receivors, because Punishment Park is literally a hateful movie. That, to me, goes beyond politics and activism, and speaks only to character, not ideas.
—PolarisDiB
People who always side with the same group no matter what are generally thinking in reverse.
That is, they’re starting with a conclusion and then finding evidence to support it, rather than looking at the evidence then coming to a conclusion.
Camera Buff follows a man who bought a film camera to record his newborn daughter as she grows up. Slowly though he finds himself more and more caught up in wanting to create films leaving his wife lonely and hurting. It is a film about many things, though principly obsession. How obsession can blind logic, and about its ability to destoy. Even as it gives meaning to someone’s life it can all the same make them forget the meaning that was already there. You can also apply all this to art as just as making films gives Filip happiness so too does it make him forget the happiness he used to have and what he used to want (indeed what his wife still wants).
Anyone feel like this also applies to the obsession we all have with watching and talking about films? I mean I kind of felt like the protagonist in Camera Buff while watching it, hoping my girlfriend wouldn’t walk out on me for spending too much time participating in this director’s cup.
We are tied!!!
It’s another exciting one!
GO WAR GAME!!!
I am sorry Jirin would you rather comment on the films rather than on other people’s voting tatics. Does it hurt so much that people don’t share your tastes in films huh. I am getting so fed up of people shit slinging in this cup. Why have people got to be so damn rude. Jirin if you look at the winners of all the pairings there is a good mix of old and new, famous and not so famous Hollywood and world cinema. Seriously it is so not fair to just rant about people’s voting tatics and brings the level of this competition to a bitch fight. I thought people were going to try and get along me included!!!! but i won’t keep quiet when all i see are negative comments attacking other users of this site!! Jirin you should be muzzled not Dimitiris at least he posts are funny:))
Cyclo—he’s not talking about voting habits. We were discussing political ramifications of Punishment Park. You might want to edit that.
(I thought Jirin was responding to my impressions of Punishment Park, in an agreeable sort of way. I must be confused.)
—PolarisDiB
ha ha I’m getting carried away and its too late at night!!!!! I will pm with an apology he he! maybe I’m the one who should be muzzled :)))))))))
Anyone feel like this also applies to the obsession we all have with watching and talking about films? I mean I kind of felt like the protagonist in Camera Buff while watching it, hoping my girlfriend wouldn’t walk out on me for spending too much time participating in this director’s cup.
I was thinking that but didn’t want to mention it for fear it might be true.
See, this director’s cup makes people jumpy too!
I’m ready for the week long break, although I’ll probably need it to start getting ahead on the next round.
Tie ballgame with an hour and 45 minutes left. ARE WE GOING TO OT?!?!?!
Oh well I can’t edit it now:( I guess it should stay and adveritse what a dick I am:)) and not reading the threads properly. I have apologized to Jirin and I will apolgize to anyone else for my excitable behaviour tonight.
P.s it is was my first time posting whilst being under the influence of alcohol and never again ha ha:)
Yes drunk posting can get you into trouble. I’m starting to wonder how many other impassioned comments made to thie site have been done so under the effects of alchohol. Maybe I’ll try it myself later tonight.
Camera Buff 0 – The War Game 1
after i somehow let von Trier down by not voting for him (still feeling sorry for not watching No Day’s Off), i won’t let that happen to Watkins .
this is just easy pick for me. Watkins is already my favorite auteurs of all time, thanks to his masterpiece Punishment Park. The War Game shows just what talent he got for making a docu-style drama. As for Camera Buff ? i found it just a good, but not great feature from Kieslowski
And War Game most certainly wins. I can’t wait to see more Peter Watkins…
here’s hoping someone puts resan on youtube. i’ve never had the chance to see it…
I love Watkins, having seen PP and Culloden as well, but unless Amator (agreed, much stronger name) is Kieslowski’s masterpiece, I’m very interested to see what else he has in store for us.
Joriah Goad
Camera Buff — 1 vs The War Game — 0