Directors’ Cup Voting, Round 1, Match 32: Andrei Tarkovsky (Ivan’s Childhood) vs Bill Douglas (Comrades)
Tarkovsky is going to win. This is pointless. Instead of a Directors cup we shoudl just vote if we like Tarkovsky or Bergman better.
Oh, don’t be a putz. There’s plenty great about this Cup no matter who wins this matchup.
I’ll wait for the results then I won’t be putz. ;D
PS. Im just disapointed that people won’t venture out. Its like they’re scared. We know who Tarkovsky and Bergman are. Lets move on.
Actually, from everything I know, Comrades is going to win, sir. :P
Savvy
Berj—I completely agree, but you want people to vote honestly. You want them to pick the film that’s better for them in the match, not the underdog.
If the underdog always won it would be the same as if the canon always won. And by the way, I’ve watched over 70 films in this thing so far and I haven’t found another Tarkovsky yet.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Dimitris ;)
Of course, I don’t say that because Comrades is the under dog, but because, from everyone I’ve talked to, Comrades is the better film, citing that Ivan is one of Tarkosky’s weaker films (which is true, in my opinion, although I still loved it). Oh well. I guess we’ll see how things work out. :D
Savvy
JR
I agree with Dimitris sayig Only Yesterday is as good as any Tarkovsky. I’m actually looking to put OY in my best ten after Andrei Rublev. :/
Well, I obviously loved OY, but I’d have to see it again. I’m waiting for something to hit me like Stalker or The Mirror did. This is all subjective stuff, and I begrudge no one their passion. I’m happy for them! And I’m looking for the same thing.
I have several 5/5 films, but my very favorite of the Cup so far might very well be A Tale of the Wind. It’s the one film that really felt transcendent to me in that way. Others have been very close. Hell, I flipped over Peppermint Candy.
Yes, I know I will have to vote in this match, too, eventually. Need to rewatch Ivan’s.
Tarkovsky is going to win. This is pointless. Instead of a Directors cup we shoudl just vote if we like Tarkovsky or Bergman better.
I’m not so sure Tarkovsky is even going to win this match, not because Douglas’ film is better (because it’s not even in the same league), but because most people don’t want to see Tarkovsky “predictably win it all.”
I’m more worried about someone much less interesting winning it all like Hitch.
There are no weak Tarkovsky films ;)…anyways I disagree with the whole need to “venture out” complaint. I love Kurosawa, Bergman, Godard, Fellini, etc., but most of them have made over 30 films, and I don’t think everyone has seen them all. Tarkovsky is a bit different since he has made only a handful of films in comparison, but there are still a lot of people that haven’t watched them all yet. The great thing about having the big name director’s competing with lesser known films is you get to compare them and see how a lot of these filmmakers and films are equals like Dimitris has been beating into our heads. :)
JR
I think you have to meet every film at its own terms and you can not be judging every film as you would Stalker of Mirror. If Ivan’s Childhood is trying to do A+B and fails and the other film is trying to do A+B and succeeds you have to aknowledge that.
You misread me. I’m not judging every film like that. Peppermint Candy isn’t either of those films and I still give it 5/5.
Every match gets my open mind. If it didn’t, you would already have seen my vote for the Russian in this thread. I loved the Douglas masterpiece. 5/5. I also gave IC 5/5, though I feel it’s a lesser Tarkovsky. So where do I lean?
This is a tough one for me.
Here we come to one of the most difficult contests of the tournament. Two films which I love and discovered fairly recently (within the past few years anyhow) so my opinions on either haven’t changed much since being blown away the first time around.
Ivan’s Childhood, the masterpiece that was Tarkovsky’s entry into international fame, and Comrades, arguably the pinnacle of Bill Douglas’ career, that nobody watched. Actually it’s kind of hard to determine an exact pinnacle in Bill Douglas’ work, as he didn’t end up making that many films.
I imagine Ivan’s Childhood might suffer from the ’It’s not Tarkovsky’s best’ votes. Although, I’m sure there are quite a few out there who regard Ivan as Tarkovsky’s best.
Images swirl through my mind from both film, but in the battle of masterpiece vs masterpiece I tend to search myself and find which film stuck with me more. Which images are fused to my brain? How much emotion can I sum up by just recalling a single frame?
And apparently, it’s Ivan’s Childhood. And I’d urge anyone who hasn’t seen it recently to watch it again before voting. Especially if they’ve just been freshly blown away by Comrades.
Forget reputations of directors, whose films you want to explore next, canon vs canon, the guy who ‘deserves to win’ and all that crap, just watch the films. Think about it and vote.
Ivan’s Childhood 1 vs Comrades 0
(I was quite amused to see a ’Tarkovsky’s going to win’ message right after what appears to be a whole a page of Comrades votes!)
10 – 7 Comrades (?)
“And I’d urge anyone who hasn’t seen it recently to watch it again before voting.”
Isn’t this the fundamental rule of the Directors’ Cup? I didn’t realise that we could vote without specifically viewing the films for the competition.
Ivan’s Childhood – 0 vs. Comrades – 1
Though Tarkovsky is my favorite director, and Ivan is his first great film, Bill Douglas’ monumental acomplishment is one exceptional piece of cinema.Personally, I would have an even tougher choice if it was to face up against either Andrei Rublev, Zerkalo, Stalker or The Sacrifice.
Douglas’ visual sophistication is light years ahead of Tarkovsky’s.
His visual sophistication consists of inserting a nice silhouette shot or characters against a landscape every 15 minutes or so, after long drags of dull theatrical costume drama conventions.
brand that link tried to take money off me…but after googling it, it would be nice if someone could respond to its quite harsh accusations…(dimitris via max?)…the role of the lanternist in the story could do with some further illumination :P
brand that link tried to take money off me
oops sorry…I will copy paste the article here I guess.
Comrades (1986)
Review/Film; A British Cause Celebre
By VINCENT CANBY
Published: January 13, 1989
“Bill Douglas’s ‘’Comrades,’’ opening today at the Public, is an elaborately misconceived three-hour movie that apparently means to be both a meditation on the heritage of cinema and a tribute to the ‘’Tolpuddle martyrs,’’ six farm laborers who became early heroes of England’s labor movement.
In 1834, the Tolpuddle farmers, who had formed a union to guard their rights, were convicted of ‘’administering illegal oaths,’’ and packed off to Australia to serve seven-year sentences. Their case became a cause celebre and they were pardoned after two years.
Just what their story has to do with movies is anybody’s guess, though Mr. Douglas spends a great deal of time and effort fooling around with it. The movie begins with an eclipse and, thereafter, keeps coming back to the theme of light and shadow, of reality versus illusion.
Appearing from time to time is a character known as the Lanternist, who wanders the 19th-century countryside giving slide shows to anyone who has a penny. Sometimes it seems that what we are watching is supposed to be one of the Lanternist’s presentations, or one by his great-great-great-grandson.
The connection is unclear. It also interrupts a good story that might have been better served by being told straight. Mr. Douglas, who wrote and directed the film, seems to be aware of this when he has one of the Tolpuddle martyrs say to the Lanternist: ‘’What you offer is illusion. What I’d like to see is the real world.’’
It may be that Mr. Douglas is trying to say something pertinent about the low estate of Britain’s labor movement in this era of Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher’s Tory Government. Possibly he has doubts about his own relationship to light and shadow. I haven’t a clue.
As he demonstrated in his autobiographical trilogy (‘’My Childhood’’ (1972), ‘’My Ain Folk’’ (1973) and ‘’My Way Home’’ (1978), Mr. Douglas can be a film maker of exceptional sensitivity when working with a subject about which he feels strongly.
His screenplay for ’’Comrades’’ is consistently perverse. Everything of importance happens off screen. What we see on screen is a series of short, anticlimactic scenes that are held no longer than the time one would spend looking at a lantern slide. Characters are dressed in appropriate period costumes but are otherwise largely uncharacterized.
Though a good deal of care was spent on the production, which was shot in England and Australia, the film itself looks like corporate waste. Showing up in cameo roles, for a good cause that fails, are Vanessa Redgrave, James Fox, Michael Hordern, Freddie Jones, Murray Melvin and Robert Stephens, among others. "
Is that a book critic attempting to write about a movie? Cause’ that is some awful film criticism.
Canby is one of the greats. I think any film critic can be off sometimes, esp if they have no connection to a film, Pauline K wrote some real shit in between writing about Nashville and Tango
“I haven’t a clue.”
Well atleast Vincent Canby was right on one point.
Ivan’s Childhood 0 Comrades 1
Douglas reaches such a level that most canon directors might as well have packed up their child’s play. And instead of this film being regarded as a national treasure available for all to marvel at, we have Big Brother and Simon Cowell.
Andrei Tarkovsky (Ivan’s Childhood) —1 vs Bill Douglas (Comrades) —0
And I feel very good about this.
“Cannon, anti-cannon, it’s all bullshit. It’s tough enough just trying to be a director.”
Quite right Josh, Ivan’s Childhood is a superb first feature, lyrical and touching, but it’s a relief to me it wasn’t Mirror or Rublev v Comrades, then agonising to vote against Douglas; he does wonders with Dorset and down under and with extra dimensions and delights from his personal interest in optical gadgets and Victorian entertainments. In Britain now we seem to have have lost such solidarity, community and resilience.
Some may not know that’s the pop singer Lily Allen’s dad Keith from Swansea who’s seen suffering near the end for nearly bumping off the bandaged sadistic master who bought him.
Ivan’s Childhood 1 vs Comrades 0
12-9 Comrades
Ioana
Ivan’s Childhood – 0 vs. Comrades – 1