Directors’ Cup Voting, Round 1, Match 5: David Lynch (Eraserhead) vs James Benning (Ten Skies)

I agree but the allen film was much better than the Zolton film imo

and Benning was better than Lynch.

“I agree but it also helps that the allen film was better than the Zolton film imo”

both were equal but let’s not get into this on this thread. (it’s Zoltan by the way, not Zolton, sheesh)

in a way, i’d like Benning to pass no matter if i voted against him. the weekend is to blame for not so many votes compared to previous matches but maybe tomorrow we’ll get back on track with both this and the later match.

I think he has bigger problems than my spelling he just lost a match in the first round!!

we should vote monday thru friday only maybe or have a absentee vote thread on thursdays for upcoming weekend films.

Eraserhead 0 – Ten Skies 1

The Tati/Ivens match taught me that the amount of conventional cinematic effort that goes into making a film does not matter to me. My vote is for the film that means more to me.

“I think he has bigger problems than my spelling he just lost a match in the first round!!”

sure, but spelling shows respect to one’s name.

A few disrespectful thoughts that occurred during the viewing of Ten Skies. The whole notion of a locked off camera capturing the ariel views does not mirror what an individual does, even if looking at the sky for 10 minutes. The gaze would move about, follow the drifting clouds across the sky, look up and down, right and left. Furthermore the structure of the film has been decided by its creator: each segment gets 10 minutes each. No part of the sky is worth more than another, there are no favourites here. They have to fit within the same slot as every other part. And why does it have to be Ten Skies? Why not as Cyclo suggested Five Skies, or indeed why not Thirteen Skies and Ten Lakes? Would it be a worse film if all sections were 9 minutes long, or 11?

And how different would the film be if sections were swapped around? How about if it started with section 7, how much would that change the experience? How about allowing the viewer to pick and choose which bits to look at and for how long as Coheed and Cambria suggested? That is certainly getting closer to the real way we look at the sky. Is the rigorous structure of the film the very antithesis of cloud gazing?

Why be stuck inside looking at representations when you can experience the real thing, only without popcorn and a gallon of Coke? Why film instead of reality? Does anyone think that Emperor is naked?

Eraserhead 0 Ten Skies 1

Ten Skies (0) vs Eraserhead (1)

I love David Lynch, but I’m not the biggest fan of Eraserhead. That being said, I vastly prefer it to Ten Skies.

I get that experimental film, or art film, or whatever you want to call it, has its importance and its place in the world of film. I even like some of it. But Ten Skies is just twaddle. I didn’t care about it one bit from first frame to last. There was nothing about it that grabbed me. Yes, it’s beautiful, but so is the freaking sky! I don’t need to sit in a darkened room to be reminded of the beauty all around me in nature. Maybe some people do, and that’s fine. The bottom line is, I got absolutely nothing from the film. If Benning had perhaps done something more interesting with his camera or in presenting the images of the film, I would have found more value in it. But as it was, there was no substance there. Eraserhead, at least, gives a glimpse into the sick, twisted mind of Lynch.

Eraserhead 0 – Ten Skies 1

Ozufan, yes Benning’s film may prompt questions in some minds (i can’t say all, but it did in mine) over the number of segments, their equal length, and the running order- what such choices by the director mean and what alternatives might be like…. and it may even be that Benning had foreseen a vast array of possible viewers’ thoughts, but then, are such ideas and dimensions added to the film a reflection of the mind of the viewer rather than the reality of the film itself: is it being given qualities it does not truly possess but which belong to the viewer? Of course this question may be another feather in its cap; subjectivity in value judgments of art etc…

should film critics pay more attention to practicalities, as a sign of directorial expertise, as Bordwell does? (he admires Ozu and Mizoguchi of course). Do film courses and theorists get carried away by their intellectualising and the seductions of having fun with psychology- at the expense of neglected or undervalued masterpieces?

Eraserhead 0 vs Ten Skies 1

James Benning and David Lynch are two filmmakers I admire like no others:
Benning’s Landscape Suicide is one of the most haunting films about human alienation in conection with urbanisation in film history, along with Akerman’s News from Home. RR was also one of the most enigmatic and interesting films of the 21st century so far. I saw Ten Skies just for the Director’s Cup and it didn’t impress me as much as the latter. But I vote for Benning simply I would prefer seeing him win, I love Lynch but I think everyone has seen his films, and even though I think Eraserhead is somewhat superior to Ten Skies, I think the whole point of the Director’s Cup is discovering.

Edwin, no offence or anything but you’re meant to vote for the film you prefer. You said Eraserhead is superior and yet you’re voting for Ten Skies? Hmm…

I think it’s now 28 to 16 in Favor of Lynch

Sorry Edwin but I agree with Cecil.

I mean, what if I came on here and said “I prefer Ten Skies, but I really want Lynch to advance because I’m a big fan of his, so I’m voting for Eraserhead”?

I’d be called a fanboy, be told I was going against the entire spirit of the tournament, and someone would probably fly to CA and shoot me in the heart.

-Why be stuck inside looking at representations when you can experience the real thing-

It seems you’re making an assumption, ozufan, that Benning’s intention was to replicate the experience of looking at the sky in the same manner one normally would with out the mediation of cinema. If fact, I think, the opposite is true. His intention is look at the sky in a way we normally wouldn’t, not to simply recreate “the real thing.”

-And why does it have to be Ten Skies? Why not as Cyclo suggested Five Skies, or indeed why not Thirteen Skies and Ten Lakes? Would it be a worse film if all sections were 9 minutes long, or 11?-

These question can be asked about aesthetic choice a filmmaker makes. Are you suggesting that there’s nothing about these choices—duration, sequencing, etc.—or the shots themselves that make the film anything other than 100 minutes of undifferentiated sky?

“It seems you’re making an assumption, ozufan, that Benning’s intention was to replicate the experience of looking at the sky in the same manner one normally would with out the mediation of cinema. If fact, I think, the opposite is true”

I wasn’t making that assumption, just bad expression on my part. The questions varied from the ridiculous through the frivilous. The last paragraph from which you quote was meant to be at the ridiculous end.

The first set of questions was my hamfisted way of saying that this is a construct that doesn’t just replicate cloudwatching, that there are aesthetic choices being made, that it is a film. And far from being an attempt at replicating something “the rigorous structure of the film [is] the very antithesis of cloud gazing” to almost quote another question.

As to the questions about why Thirteen Lakes and Ten Skies, why not the other way round, an answer would be genuinely illuminating to me. I was trying to point out that those choices had been made, but I would be interested to know if it planned as ten skies and thirteen lakes or were more filmed and those were the ones selected? Would a DVD have four extra lakes or three extra skies as special features?

Yeah, the deleted scenes could really help explain and expand, maybe Ten Skies Redux

“Would a DVD have four extra lakes or three extra skies as special features”?

ROFL!

Eraserhead 0 vs. Ten Skies 1

Ten Skies deluxe 2 disc edition DVD- featuring commentary by director James Benning and actor Cumulo Nimbus.

On Edwin’s vote, I agree with Cecil and Drew. If you are going to vote politically, at least have the decency to hide it.

I have a different tally than Uli did above.

Now it is 29 – 17 for Lynch.

That is with removing Jose’s vote for being a manager in this match, counting Ninja Master’s vote on page 5 that was in the incorrect format, and allowing Edwin’s dubious vote (sorry, I can’t let some things go).

Just read through all the comments since where I left off yesterday. Thanks to Greg and Blue for your insightful comments, putting everything into a different perspective for us. Wow! I have enjoyed all the discussion here.

Truly, this unusual match-up is generating some inspired posts, from posters in all camps re these 2 unique films. Both represent the limits – as well as the possibilities – when we throw around the term ‘film as art’. Thanks to everyone for their comments so far. I hope this same level of discussion continues in this event. Both managers should be proud, whatever the results, to have provided us two films that stimulate posters’ imagination.

…

-I would be interested to know if it planned as ten skies and thirteen lakes or were more filmed and those were the ones selected? Would a DVD have four extra lakes or three extra skies as special features?-

Easy enough to answer for 13 Lakes. Benning:

“Because 13 was how long I could pay attention, and how long I thought the audience could last. It could have been shorter but I wanted to push it a little. And I like the number 13, a prime number . . . I filmed Lake Champlain and I didn’t like it. I added Lake Superior because I felt we needed more winter shots. 15 were shot in all but I always planned on 13. The shooting ratio was about 3 to 1 . . . I knew how I wanted to start and finish: begin with the sun rising and the water moving away from us, and end with the sun setting and the water returning to us . . . “I made 13 notecards and shuffled the order around until creating something that I was happy with. Since I had the first and last set, it was actually 11 note cards that I jumbled around. The factorial of 11 equals over a million (editor’s note: it equals 39,916,800), so I know I don’t have the best order.”

Also, I suspect Wallace Stevens’ famous poem “Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Blackbird,” may have been an influence, but I can’t confirm that.

With Ten Skies, I think it most likely has something to do with the mathmatical squareness of 10 X 10 (ten shot of ten minute duration). The duration being determined by the longest possible usable take with the load in the 16mm camera Benning was using until his recent transition to digital video.

-Would a DVD have four extra lakes or three extra skies as special features?-

Ha ha. That, of course, is leaping in to a whole different paradigm of filmmaking that Benning is not a part of.

Eh, the four extra lakes would be fine, but all the real fans would prefer a blooper reel over the end credits.

Matt, the Stevens poem leaped into my mind as well regarding 13 Lakes, and I think your guess sounds pretty good regarding the ten skies too. Thanks for digging up the info on how Benning went about structuring his film. I never seem to get around to looking up such things even though they can answer some questions about the film.

I’ve been out of town but monitoring the voting from my phone. Regardless of the tally, my meta-hope was that the film would spark an interesting discussion about the possibilities of film, and it has.

The beginning of the intro thread I wrote for Ten Skies asked these questions:

“What is a film? Must it have rules? If those rules are vastly different than what I’m used to, should I recoil, or lean in?”

More than any other Benning film, for me, Ten Skies confronts the spectator to examine their limits and many have expressed them in this thread. Victory!

Also, those who believe Landscape Suicide would have been the better choice to win the competition, you may be right, but I’m betting 95% of the people who didn’t ‘get’ Ten Skies would still have that “?” over their head for LS.

So whatever happens, I’m already pleased with the results, though the number of people who’ve admitted to not finishing the film (and are voting anyway) is troubling. I wonder how much of that is going on in the competition at large?

I’d like to add one thing.

I think there is something incredibly beautiful in the subjective nature of avant garde filmmaking. Sure all opinions on films are subjective, but still if you take a “normal” film there are some objective qualities to it. But avant garde filmmaking is so much more emotional and personal. Its all about how the film makes you feel.

So although Ten Skies didn’t hit me, I’m sad to see Benning leave because who knows how another of his films might effect me, and when a film like this makes you feel something there’s a truly special experience in that.

There’s still tomorrow, you know.

James Benning is fixing his hair.

That’s the spirit!

JR—can’t you just turn Ten Skies up a notch to 11?