@ Daffy’s post: I’m in good company, it seems, though Ally and I rarely vote together.
It’s 17-11 now.
Bresson’s up against either Bartas or Jarman, eh?
I guess I can wait for another round before he’s gone, ha ha ha.
Mouchette 1 – The Heiress 0
Robert Bresson (Mouchette) —1 vs William Wyler (The Heiress) —0
While I would really like to see more from Wyler. and I appreciate the professionalism and attention to detail in “The Heiress”, it was the performance of the non-professional Nadine Nortier and Bresson’s ability to convey meaning with select images (and so few words) that impressed me.
I wasn’t expected such a joy from The Heiress damn it was a good movie. But Mouchette is one of my favourites of all time so the vote is definitely for Mouchette.
I think Mouchette is the highest of Bresson.
Sure thing but I think one more film from Rocha, Visconti or Theo would have been more ideal.
Well the results of this match aren’t going to affect that.
Haven’t you checked my review threads? ;)
No. What are the links?
Yes Sanjuro, he won’t be around next year, but Haneke and Bunuel and Fellini will be. I’m amazed to be honest how Bresson passed from McLaren!!!!
Dim, I don’t think Sanjuro was saying Bresson won’t be around next year (although that’s true). I think what he was saying is that YOU won’t be around next year. You have claimed this is the last cup you are participating in.
^ That doesn’t mean I cannot be a spectator ;)
“Well the results of this match aren’t going to affect that.”
They do, it’s one more Bresson film, ugh…
That doesn’t mean I cannot be a spectator ;)
I hope you’ll continue to join us as much as you can :)
But there’s no way that the outcome of this match at this point could create a situation where another Rocha, Visconti or Theo film.
Robert Bresson (Mouchette) —0 vs William Wyler (The Heiress) —1
I’ll never get why Bresson is so beloved. I far prefer most of those dismissed as his imitators to him.
“But there’s no way that the outcome of this match at this point could create a situation where another Rocha, Visconti or Theo film.”
I know, the fact that Bresson though has been voted by so many all that long is astounding!
William Wyler The Heiress 1 – Robert Bresson Mouchette 0
Quite a contrast in styles and how each was able to achieve his vision working within two completely systems. I’m going to be sorry if Wyler loses here, but Mouchette is an excellent example of Bressons strengths as a film maker.
I admire Wyler for his skill at putting exactly what he wants on the screen. But, I just don’t like 30s-50s Hollywood. I don’t like films with kindergarden ethics, or films where the universe conspires to pander to the emotions of the audience. When a film makes the moral right and wrong align easily and obviously with the protagonists and antagonists, then sets it up at the end so everybody is handed whatever fate we’ve been manipulated to feel they deserve, I always get bored.
I’m halfway through Heiress right now. I’ll check in tomorrow morning and see if it’s close enough to be worth voting.
It seems like I have a chance of going 0-5 this round. I just hope that Zulawski can pull it out (and I’m still hoping Jarman will recover).
Yes Sanjuro, he won’t be around next year, but Haneke and Bunuel and Fellini will be.
Actually didn’t Brady say he wouldn’t manage Haneke if we could only manage one director each? Or am I thinking of someone else.
That’s right, Sanjuro.
Mouchette – 0 / The Heiress – 1
Mouchette 0 The Heiress 1
This was a very tough choice. One of Bresson’s best (and an influence on the great Rosetta) v one of Wyler’s.
Wyler has the advantage as i just watched it again after many years, and also as i’m not too keen on Bresson, with a few exceptions.
The Heiress is very involving melodrama: how timid she is, how much i wanted her to be happy, (De Havilland is extraordinary) what an awful father (Richardson’s extraordinary too), how dismissive of his daughter, what a charming young man is Clift, the romance is lush, the father must be overcome, the strings stir up with Plaisir d’Amour, and so i was siding with the couple even with nagging doubts- the points raised to Clift’s sister and her response…and so it turns out that not only is such exquisite melodrama manipulative but i can contemplate that very manipulation on the audience, led up the path of a false belief through wishful thinking and close identification with our heroine. And then the whole mood changes and it is quite a cruel film. Are we to applaud this hardening of the heart, this vengeful fom of victory at the end? She has after all shaken off timidity and become more confident, knowing and emancipated? It may be some sort of compensation but it is surely a cruel defeat too, and the film no glorious romantic tragedy but darkly pessimistic. Is it entirely credible? Maybe not, but it does raise interesting questions.
So a victory for superior filmed theatre over a man who despised any such theatricality
Mouchette (0) – The Heiress (1)
Not as close a choice as I expected.
The Heiress would make an interesting double bill with Letter from an Unknown Woman. Would Joan Fontaine, De Havilland’s younger sister, have suited the role?
Melodrama need not be a dirty word, far from it. Especially when pointing up its own melodramatic qualities and the manipulation of audience emotions within such refinement
Kenji, you and theatre look as if you’re two common identities, are you a fan of performance art as well? I’ve noticed in many of your lists and favorites theatricality in its greater substance is evident and your love for it. Bresson certainly wasn’t keen on these kind of props and conformities but that’s not to say theatre’s influence should be omitted from cinema.
Plenty of time yet. And only 4 more Heiress fans required to even things up a bit.
Well i love the exquisite melodramas of Mizoguchi and Ophuls, and the exaggeration of Sternberg, the richness of Powell/Pressburger. And enjoy the audience manipulation by Hitchcock- i was reminded in The Heiress of Suspicion, with the play on our uncertainty over Cary Grant- surely Grant can’t be so evil, surely Clift’s a nice young man seeing with his heart beyong outward appearances to the warm soul beneath? Maybe i take less naturally to minimalism. Cinema is well suited to strong emotions as well as restraint, it’s just so often misused, so little wonder arthouse cinema these days often goes to the opposite of Hollywood. Some directors transcend the risky excess of melodrama with their decor, camerawork, visual expressiveness. As for theatre, i’ve only been a handful of times, 3 to Shakespeare, and i found it hard to suspend disbelief in the Henry V battle scenes, but enjoyed it, was shocked when someone’s head in Heny IV prt 2 really was chopped off before my eyes as a kid, another time watched intently for signs of dead Juliet breathing (she didn’t!) while another time in France a one woman monologue play bored me rigid. Maybe i should go again, it’s been a long time. But film is my love, it can combine the best of other artforms. The purity of what is cinematic can become a trap if a matter of snobbery..
Sanjuro, i think there may be a Bresson vote being withheld in case of a close finish?
Apursansar has been managing a truly great director Satyait Ray, i hadn’t realised he’d been ko’d, what a pity but i suppose he did have a great run in the world cup too, so a decent chance for Sjostrom to show what more he’s made of. I only wish i could take to Bresson more, it’’s still a blind spot.
I was certain that I was going to be voting for Mouchette at first, but after watching the Heiress, it completely changed my mind. Not saying anything bad against Mouchette, but I was truly surprised by The Heiress, I had never even heard of it before.
Yes, unfortunately, Bresson will probably win this due to that late “tie-breaker” vote, in case that happens by the end of the match day.
Well, i think at least Wyler has made some new fans. He’s been discarded too often on auteurist film courses and studies, so fallen from being a major respected Hollywood player (partly because of that) to strange neglect. Of course Ben Hur is overblown and some later films like Funny Girl are unbecoming, but several earlier films deserve a lot more attention. In some cases, for all its revitalising influence, the cinema de papa attutude threw out baby with bathwater- in the early 50s Mizoguchi saw him as a likely rival at Venice and thought highly of him, he was already well known for years for deep staging and skill with actors and storytelling
This result may still be in the balance, as there’s quite a comeback.
Mouchette 20 The Heiress 17
Actually Kenji, how certain are we that most who had seen Ben Hur at a young age, say 16 or 17 (under those ages all is debatable) possibly cared to look up the director of that film? Most worthy studio films by Wyler aren’t recognized by the director but by the stars of it, Olivier in Wuthering Heights, Davis in Little Foxes and son on. He’s been discarded like plenty of worthwhile Hollywood studio directors of those eras as the commercial part of cinema, from any decade that is and I have to applaud Greg for having picked his cream of the crop so far and not the lightweight stuff he’s either known for or has made in between his great works.
It’s charming to see that the most viewed Wyler films like Funny Girl and Ben Hur are two of his WORST works by far.
Hmm, what about “Roman Holiday”? Is it among Wyler’s better works? That is the only other Wyler film I have watched so far besides “The Heiress”. What else should I be watching from him?
Roman Holiday, one of my favorite Wyler works because…it’s so much different than his elegant romances! I’m fairly certain it’s quite popular to the Hepburn fans but like with Best Years and Ben Hur, they’re rarely known by the director’s name but primarily…for their stars!
Greg can guide us more into his favorites about him as I’ve not even seen half of his filmography! Possibly Jerry Johnson, Tomasulo and Ehrenstein too to name some of the more Hollywood experienced folks.
“i was siding with the couple even with nagging doubts- the points raised to Clift’s sister and her response…and so it turns out that not only is such exquisite melodrama manipulative but i can contemplate that very manipulation on the audience, led up the path of a false belief through wishful thinking and close identification with our heroine.”
Did anyone else distrust Clift from extremely early on, before the father mentioned his doubts? Or am I alone…
“What else should I be watching from him?”
I’ve only seen the four films used in the Cup and Ben-hur. Avoid Ben-hur like the plague, it’s an abomination, but the other three Cup films you’ve yet to see are all very impressive with The Best Years of Our Lives being the best among them and rather incredible.