Amoeba’s so tops it should count not only as the second thing, but also as a third thing. One for the DVDs, one for the music.
Also, kudos to Jerry’s very keen post on Godard.
I’m thinking of switching my tactics to try to make the top three movies
Sans Soleil
Sunrise
A Brighter Summer Day
in that order. Make a story out of the top 20 list, whatdyaguys think?
—PolarisDiB
@JIRIN and @JAZZ
These are two different intersubjective criteria for greatness, which are mutually contradictory. If The Godfather were less accessible it would be a weaker film, but if Eraserhead were more accessible, it would be a weaker film.
I’m still not sure I buy into how accessibility matters. Sometimes a very “strange” piece of art turns out to be bizarrely accessible by a lot of people (Twin Peaks, anyone?) and sometimes a very safe, studio film can just not connect to audiences (insert your choice of any hollywood blockbuster that tanked horribly.)
I don’t see how this has any bearing on the quality of the piece. If The Godfather was revered by only 10 people instead of millions, this would not alter the film in any way. If anything, if a film just so happens to connect to boatloads of people, then kudos, you get a big pat on the back. You get Eprops.
Are you a better/worse film because of this fact? IMHO, I very much think not.
Heh—nice, DiB.
Now if only Before Sunset were a far more worthy film…
Alright. I have been holding off on explaining myself too much for this game because my role as player in the game I’m moderating could always come under question, and it is easier to stay silent and let people make their own judgments. But after a week of this, I figure it is worth discussion.
Personally, I have not seen Birdemic: Shock and Terror. But one thing I know without seeing, is that The Fountain is a much better movie than it. I do trust Den’s judgment to a degree that he doesn’t throw out these movies just to be quirky, he genuinely finds something interesting and compelling, “good” about them, and that they are sincerely some of his favorite movies. And I do understand that many people here are working under the tacit agreement that they avoid movies they haven’t seen so that they do not end up getting rid of some underappreciated classic that could need the help from someone who has seen it. But if we were looking at the list as a whole, organizing it in order of our appreciation of these movies and how it represents the sort of material discussed on this board, the stuff that engages and compels us, Birdemic: Shock and Terror does not belong far before The Fountain does. Proof? The reason why people are going anti-Aronofsky and anti-Fincher are typically cited because two things:
1) “I don’t like that director.”
2) “…and for some reason a lot of other people do, and I’m tired of hearing about it.”
Not liking The Fountain is legit. Being tired of having people, in that very thread called “near religious”, defend it, well…
…is legit only because ultimately it does reflect the nature of discussion on this board as a currency of plusses and minuses. Let us be clear: The Fountain is not gone because it is a worse movie than Birdemic: Shock and Terror, or because it’s a movie that much more people disliked than even saw Birdemic: Shock and Terror. The Fountain is gone because people do not want to have to deal with The Fountain’s defenders later. It is easier to remove it from the equation early and then work through whether to let Birdemic: Shock and Terror just fall off from lack of inertia. The problem is that The Fountain is not the only movie on the list that Dimitris calls “hip.”
I am sort of taken aback by how few “protectors” there are. Hardly a week in, and we’ve been eliminating movies at a rate of 4.3 movies per day, without me enacting extra tumbles. This is very different from all the three previous times I have run the game, where about as many who concentrated on the top also concentrated on the bottom. I believe this has to do more with the mass of the list, which means I should have started with 10 points or more for each movie to give it a lot more play room; with over 100 people voting per day, they could eliminate 20 movies before anybody even questioned whether or not those movies were worth protecting. Previous games I played, it was pretty difficult to eliminate a movie in just three rounds unless most people involved were complicit with that tactic. Most of you seem to recognize this and thus are focusing on the medium-ranked movies you think have a chance and a support to survive. Most of you seem to be ignoring everything under the 7 point movies entirely. I would recommend at least once you take a look through the 5 point movies and really decide whether there may not be some laggards there that are more than worth a quick hike for posterity.
Now of course acknowledging the fact that I stated, that 1.7% of the movies on the first list will survive in the final, measly, short and tiny 20 movies, many people should also realize that when you +2 a movie, it then requires three people to -1 the movie the next round to place the movie lower than it’s position in the previous round. One person’s support requires three people’s neggies to undo. So yes, I knew The Fountain was not going to last at the end. But for every +2 The Fountain received, three people had one more additional round where they weren’t moving on to the next movie I love. I have lost about one movie I love each round, but there are still hundreds of movies I love on the list that are planted still because nobody has quite yet gotten around to demoting them. As less movies I enjoy are represented on the list, I can personally focus more on the remainder, leading to a strong end-game for those few movies I love that remain. And in the meantime, if I hold back an initial bout with one movie, maybe another defender of that movie will come along who will focus more exclusively on it. Like Zodiac, which I have not seen, but which stuck around long enough for defenders to rally for it while the other Fincher’s got the axe. I sincerely doubt Zodiac will survive, but as long as it does, some other Zodiac like movie is also protected from being pleasantly out of view.
So what I’m saying is, you can all say you voted down The Fountain entirely because you dislike Aronofsky, but you do not convince me that it does not have something to do with Aronofsky’s fans. However, I don’t really care about regulating that type of movement because Aronofsky’s fans also happen to be more than near-religious hipster fanboys, they tend also to like movies like Sans Soleil and The Double Life of Veronique and Sherlock Jr. , which have a more fighting chance of surviving possibly to the end, and thus represents the area on the board in which Aronofsky lovers and Aronofsky haters can in at least a pluralistic way agree. As long as the Aronofsky fans rally to defend an Aronofsky title, it keeps the both Aronofsky and Keaton haters busy so that the Aronofsky and Keaton lover can have Keaton around for later.
Also keep in mind that as runner of this game, it is in my personal interest to eliminate movies as fast as possible. So I have to work a line between trying to get stuff off quickly, and keep as many titles in play for a wider variety of people to get involved (yes, people will start to stop being involved once many if not all of their favorite titles are eliminated—and some may be huffy about it). So my role is slightly schizophrenic, but that’s actually the only way I enjoy the game (I wouldn’t be playing it if I were not running it, seriously). A part of me has always been fascinated with data, currency, transaction, all of these things that are mere signifiers of measurements of value, not values itself. Since we all know that a great movie is not made great because of the value signifier of monetary transaction, there is the critical value signifier of lists. People’s revulsions to “canon” style activity in lists and recognition of the hegemony behind it that might as well be monetary currency, is yet still an active interest in propagating the currency of lists; those who reject lists entirely are merely rejecting the currency, in favor of the currency of discussion also well-known as “critical intercourse”. Money, sexually transmitted diseases, drugs, movie lists: human transactions standing in for an underlying need, habit, or pleasure.
Thus I hereby announce what will determine the “21st movie” that I alluded to: the “Mubi Golden Cow” award, so deemed because it represents “the movie set on pillars so that it may be slaughtered.” Whichever movie that was in the original top 20 published on the first page that drops off the list first gains this award. It shows that so many people love it, and so many people love to hate it, which to me is the same thing. It has critical Mubi currency. Enjoy.
—PolarisDiB
Now all of that said, what I did not expect was a contingent of Filipino activists Occupying my list’s currency’s Wall Street. I am torn with a variety of emotions around this, one of them being perplexity that a forum user’s generated list is taken seriously enough to rally a contingent of proxy voters to support a movie to get its name “out there” in the world, which it certainly is doing here but certainly doesn’t make the movie wider known in critically established areas. There are a variety of productive opportunities I see here that are worthy of the energy being put in, but on the other hand the list is supposed to represent MUBI USERS and whereas at least these guys have gotten active and started talking, I would like the final outcome to represent what we on this board actually talk about. I’m very ambivalent and need more discussion about how we should take this. I don’t want to kick them out and I don’t want Three Godless Years to have 100 points with nary a regular user having seen it. I would love to have it in the final list but people read final lists from the top, and I can say without judgment to the qualities of that movie itself that it is not Mubi’s favorite movie of all time.
Hrm.
—PolarisDiB
Pulp Fiction = Golden Cow, poop
@Polaris
I’m all for the discovery of hidden Filipino gems of course, but like I just posted in the voting thread, I initially assumed that you meant for this game to be for regular MUBI forum users only (as contentious as the phrase “regular user” is); and so perhaps the votes of those users who have clearly just recently created their MUBI account and have only posted 1 or 2 or 3 comments in the forum (specifically in the voting thread) shouldn’t be legitimate votes?
Personally I don’t mind if Three Godless years ends up with 100 points, as it won’t make much difference one way or the other in the end other than it being on the list at all will knock off one other film, but I can sympathize with the dismay about them voting down films as a block, if indeed they are doing so without reflection rather than for reason. The rules as they were allowed for such things, so allowing them is fine, but it is your game and if it seems like a problem I also have no problem with you changing it to better reflect your intentions. I would suggest emailing Noel and telling him about your concerns as he is a reasonable guy and I doubt he would raise a fuss, especially since his film got all the notice he could ask for and then some.
Of course they could band together to raise other films as well potentially, but then again so could any other users here, so again, I think asking Noel to perhaps tone down the tactic a little might be the best way to go.
I agree with that notion by Mischa, while on the one hand the support by Filipinos for “Three Godless Years” is a nice thing, the mubi users poll is arguably the wrong place for that, also given that there’s no availability of the film with subs for non-Tagalog-speaking users (in other words almost all regulars) which makes it seem a bit like teasing. One option to deal with it could be to split the result table into one that counts the votes by non-regulars and people who signed up just to support the film and one that doesn’t. Or if that’s too much work the votes by anyone who hasn’t previously posted on the forum a couple of times should simply be disallowed.
Apocalypse Now is my favorite All-Time Film, but if the Filipinos want to gang up on it, so be it, it’s all part of the game, all the top films should drop and all the bottom films should ascend
I would suggest to Noel, however, that he may have reached his maximum possible positive effect already though and is now facing a set of diminishing returns as those who may have been intrigued become annoyed.
For what it’s worth, I do think this was something of a stroke of minor genius on Noel’s part in that without the investment in the game structure, people wouldn’t have cared as much about the movie even if it did show up on some list or another, but as I said, this isn’t something that will necessarily hold as annoyance can turn to hostility and avoidance quickly.
Mischa,
many of the people who have been regularly voting and discussing their votes in the game since it started are users I do not recognize from regular discussion outside of the game, and some seem to have come into the board because the game attracted them. I would love for the game to attract more users, and for the final list to attract more users. This is a typical result of this type of game, from my experiences.
However, I have a higher preference for the opinions of regular users I recognize from other areas. Their opinions hold more currency for me, whether I agree with them or not.
I am still watching how this develops for this round, and will probably make my decision next round. Luckily… every 7th round is a round where something is supposed to change (in other words, weekly the game adjusts itself), so I may just use that as a springboard.
Uli,
it looks like it. But even outside of alternating tactics, weird things sometimes happen in the game.
—PolarisDiB
“I agree with that notion by Mischa, while on the one hand the support by Filipinos for “Three Godless Years” is a nice thing, the mubi users poll is arguably the wrong place for that..”
On the contrary, I don’t see a better place on this forum to promote a film. If the film remains where it is, I have a feeling that we will eventually get a subtitled version of it. I am assuming that the guys supporting this film have the intention of it being seen and appreciated by people rather than just teasing us.
@Rohit Apte
I agree that promoting a neglected film is a good thing, and that it would be great for a subtitled version of Three Godless Years to become available as a result of this game, but I think that apursansar was referring to the fact that the MUBI users poll was specifically created for… well, MUBI users (as opposed to users who have only just created their MUBI account in order to vote for the film). But I also agree with Polaris that it would be a good thing for the game to attract more users, and that it’ll be interesting to see how the whole thing pans out!!
@Rohit: I know that, but if their promotion of “Three Godless Years” motivates users to vote against that film without even having seen it then something is definitely going wrong. It’s possible that the poll will bring us closer to a subtitled version of “Three Godless Years”, but given the amount of underappreciated masterpieces which are actually available with subs though being downgraded and obscured due to these tactics it’s not entirely a positive thing. Again, I’m aware that the intention behind the promotion has been a good one, but I think a better start would have been a thread which introduces the film and calls for possible subtitlers, and after that a poll promotion when people actually got a chance to see it.
What pisses me off isn’t people voting down on Three Godless Years, since it’s impossible to track it down with a subtitle file, but people voting down on films without having seen them thinking it’s “easier” this way to promote their own personal choice when they can easily make room in their viewing queue to watch them!
For instance, I haven’t watched Sans Soleil yet (I know Marc, don’t shoot me, hahahaha) but I won’t just vote it down without having seen it first, why? Because it IS available with English subtitles online! Yup, it’s THAT easy. What, are we gonna vote down Spirit of the Beehive now just because we “haven’t seen it”? It would make more sense if someone were to vote down Erice’s film because he disliked the matter in hand or the direction etc…
What I’m talking about is: be objective / subjective with films which ARE available with subtitles and / or available online copies to retrieve from somewhere!
Shall we go through the threads about little known films that have died quick deaths due to people ignoring them because they had no idea what the film was?
Agree or not, we’re talking about the film, right?
And Dim, it’s a game, everyone will go at it different. You love to wave the flag of destruction at Fincher, others choose to knock down highly voted films because they are highly voted, it’s all part of the game.
@Mischa
I think we are getting too worked up with the final outcome of this list. We want it to represent MUBI users, we also want to see obscure films, we also don’t want to entirely do away with popular films etc. I think whatever we get in the end will be what we deserve. Anyone who has an account on MUBI and is voting is a user. It’s really crazy to try and differentiate between regular and irregular users.
@Apu
I don’t think many MUBI users read those individual film threads on the forum including myself. This thread has been a revelation in terms of recommendations and I think there is no better platform for promoting a film irrespective of whatever is the final outcome of this poll.
^ Yes Uli, but my difference is…I HAVE seen Fincher’s films, even his bloody music videos!!!!
How many of the ones who voted Berlin Alexanderplatz and Brighter Summer Day down have ACTUALLY seen them?
It’s one thing to vote down on a film you’ve seen and another to vote on a film you haven’t when it’s obviously AVAILABLE TO WATCH somewhere. I understand the reasoning behind Three Godless Years’ minus points but it’s baffling to see minus points on films when someone can easily track them down online and properly criticize them.
I will only vote down films I have seen
I dont worry about Godless because it cannot make the top 20 if only 3 or 4 people support it. After a while there are only gonna be about 40 films on here and the regular posters are gonna move up the ones they have seen at a quick rate.
btw my number 21 choice would have been Alexander Nevsky I think that would have played well here
and I hope someone will please upload Once Before I Die so I am not the only one voting it up.
And Dim, your tactic works for you, Congrats. But this is a game, what goes is what goes. Maybe if you stop your openly campaigning for the downfall of films you want to drop, others will just vote on films they have seen.
@Dimitris
Anyone who is voting down films without seeing them is immature in my opinion. I trust that we have a more mature crowd on MUBI that doesn’t give a damn on the outcome of this list but rather looks at it as an opportunity to discover films.
“After a while there are only gonna be about 40 films on here”
So essentially…we’ll all just gonna start voting down 5 point films without having seen them?? Umm, really?
“what goes is what goes”
Sure thing, I just find it weird that films one hasn’t seen are being voted down when he / she has so many other options. It’s not like there’s a Brighter Summer Day pact as opposed to three Godless Years, so why not make it a priority and get interested with all this fuss and watch it? I know, not everyone’s mind works the same but it would be more reasonable as an option. I campaign for and against films I’ve watched, I don’t campaign in favor or against Children of Paradise for instance since I haven’t checked it yet!
“I trust that we have a more mature crowd on MUBI that doesn’t give a damn on the outcome of this list but rather looks at it as an opportunity to discover films.”
Correct Rohit, speaking of which, if Children of Paradise actually ends up being there for a while, a flicker may spark inside me and inspire me to finally watch it!
It has too many votes Dim, it must drop.
Anarchy is the only true answer.
So essentially…we’ll all just gonna start voting down 5 point films without having seen them?? Umm, really?
I never said anything like that, I just said eventually we are gonna reach a short list. Films are taken out every day. It may take a year but since films are taken out and none are added, we will eventually reach a short list. Isn’t that what we are doing?
^ Affirmative Den, I just feel that many people should be seeing the 5 point films in order to vote them down, huh? Unless of course, this strategy of “voting down films you haven’t seen” overwhelms even the best of users.
I will call out my own film I added here Birdemic: Shock and Terror. I love this film and have rewatched it several times (it is in fact the only blu ray film I own). I admire it for a number of reasons location, humor. The most compelling of which is sincerity. I hear about bad films that should be celebrated because the makers and actors were sincere and untalented in a compelling way, think Ed Wood, but I never completely bought that until Birdemic.The actors are sweet in their efforts and the director’s second language sort of idosyncracies are touching. I love the film in a way that one can only love a so bad it is good film (in my case so bad it is transcendent). But the film only has two stars on here and quite a few I follow gave it one. I would think voters would want to drop something like that but it goes unopposed while people go after McCabe or other films that are highly regarded even on here (Altman’s big victory in the DC was with McCabe). Strange.
Den, Egg Zach Lee, and that’s what I meant about Ghosts Can’t Do It (yes, I’ve seen it, I mean it’s Bo Derek, she can’t act, but she’s hot (she lives about 30 miles away from me)).
And I widely respect your… your… your… wildly eclectic film tastes.
Jazzaloha
@Santino
…plus, tickets are free to the public! Can’t beat that.
You can’t. What the heck?! I really don’t like L.A., but that’s definitely one cool think about the city. (Oh, I’d throw Amoeba in there, too. OK, two things.)