I’ll stand up for what I take Jazz’s intentions to be with that thread as while it’s one thing to speak in generalities about the subject, Mubi has a specific dynamic of being heavily skewed towards youngish male users, and that is what I think Jazz was addressing, not some larger social concern. Whether the post was ideally phrased or not, the subject of the site being more welcoming to a wider range of users is one worth addressing or, in the case of the post, supporting.
Mubi has a specific dynamic of being heavily skewed towards youngish male users
Greg is this the case with most internet movie sites in general, or is Mubi more that way than other places?
I have little perspective on this in terms of other sites because I don’t go to any other sites. Only interested in and have time to devote to this one.
It seems to be the case for most movie discussion sites, the broader ones anyway some individual blogs would be different, but that being so doesn’t make us any better off for it as the demographic can skew perception. Of course this is also true for the culture at large as well when it comes to who has a say or participates in discussions and therefore sets the tone for how and what is considered “important”, like superhero movies for example.
Edit: Just for a specific example, if you would look at the IMDb demographic rating breakdown for Twilight: Eclipse, a series noted for a devoted female fanbase, you would see that 52, 553 men have given the film a rating of 4.4 while only 32, 267 women have given it a rating, and their average was 6.0. This suggests that a great many more men than women are rating movies on the site or the demographics of viewership for the films is greatly misunderstood. Having browsed the site I can say with some degree of certainty that it is the former unless women don’t see films in nearly the same numbers as men. It is also the case that younger users outweigh older ones by considerable amounts and that using sites like IMDb or Mubi for some general idea of audience approval is going to push towards the opinions of young men in that regard and that seems to have some effect on reporting and perception overall, to say the least.
HA HA HA! Or UNLIKE superhero movies in this venue, for example.
Perhaps I was insensitive. I am a man, after all.
odi, as far as internet message boards go, this one is very enlightened. i have rarely ever seen a problem with sexism here, but when i do see a problem i am not one to keep my mouth shut. i was pleased and not surprised when several males took my side. <3 mubi
Odilonvert, I wasn’t saying anything about women, I just don’t care for this sort of sensitivity, because it causes comments like that. If someone says an outright sexist, racist or whatever comment, sure, it would be reasonable to be offended, but this is all pretty much over the title of a tread that obviously wasn’t intended to be offensive, and that IS unreasonable.
the trouble wasn’t over the title of the thread, it was the title of the thread that led to the trouble
we don’t have these problems much but they’re bound to crop up sometimes given the gender balance here. and i certainly think there were some sexist comments in that thread
Paulfilmo — don’t give yourself that excuse. Men are sensitive too. They may not show it much, but they sure as hell are. Maybe even more than women are sometimes…
And a very, very beautiful music selection, thanks for that, I love that era in music.
G — I’m with Ruby here. All I’m really asking for is a bit more awareness and respect. If people started making racist comments the whole place would blow up. For some reason, it’s ok not to be aware of things that offend women, subtle things. To have that pointed out is not the end of the world. Everyone takes their criticism here. As long as it’s not a personal attack, I think it’s fair and can be put in such a way to raise awareness, not stomp on people.
For the record, I’m not a “ball-busting feminist who burns bras.” But I do believe in respect, as a fellow human being.
“Odilonvert, I wasn’t saying anything about women, I just don’t care for this sort of sensitivity, because it causes comments like that. If someone says an outright sexist, racist or whatever comment, sure, it would be reasonable to be offended, but this is all pretty much over the title of a tread that obviously wasn’t intended to be offensive, and that IS unreasonable.”
Apparently intent is magic , and as long as someone doesn’t intend to offend people it doesn’t matter when they do offend people!
Also, you’re still dismissing people’s being offended on the basis them ‘being over-sensitive’.
Again, the links are very relevant.
Jesus, I’m not trying to avoid anything, I just honestly don’t give a shit. And I get it, you can link sites, congratulations!
I didn’t have time to read either thread in detail…but my fleeting response was I didn’t like the female thread on sight as it had the potential to idealise and invited bouquets upon a specific group which I don’t find quite palatable, it invites sucking up for the sake of it (for the want of a more sophisticated turn of phrase:) feels patronising to me (to the group i.e.)… and exclusionist to everyone else. The Zooey one seemed ill advised as well but I also agree with those comments I saw about trusting Jazz’s intent/heart on both counts. Intent can influence response obviously – if meant in a spiteful way it will be more hurtful, if intent is benign and born of genuine curiosity or to engender fun then it might not be so potentially damaging but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t also be pointed out to author speaker organiser (or whomever) when something has the potential to marginalise, objectify, and offend.
Different societies are obviously more tuned in and sensitive about to what in Australia is often referred to as “all that PC bullshit” or similar, last year on a local TV show an amateur entertainment group came on wearing black face….can you imagine. The American guest (Harry Connick Jr) stormed out in disgust leaving many Australians and the network scratching their heads and a great many comments flying around in the aftermath on blogs talk back and over back frences about fun and no harm being intended. Out of the furore that followed, I think our community became more aware of the power of that sort of stuff to belittle and that it is not ok, it does matter, it is not harmless to objectify no matter how robust the purity of intent.
I’ll be blatant here and say that I love Meg. You put it all in perspective, so eloquently.
But please don’t spank me because I paid a compliment to another woman on this thread. ;)
Intent is the difference between manslaughter and murder. I guess what’s being stated here is both are crimes, and ignorance of the law is no excuse.
My personal entitled little white boy perspective, several times my apologies slip in ‘intent’ as self-defense just the same as people’s forgiveness slips in jeremiads about larger causes, so that most Internet discussion on these sorts of issues follow this recurring pattern:
P1: “Something unintentionally offensive.”
P2: “That’s offensive.”
P1: “I’m sorry, I didn’t intend, why is it offensive?”
P2: “I know you didn’t ‘intend’, P1, but overall social social thing and horrible people and I’m tired of having to make these arguments and if people can’t understand why it’s offensive then and…”
P1: “Well I’m certainly not those other people, I care about…. and besides, I have many friends of the same demographic under consideration!”
P3: “Hi there I have no part in this but what’s the matter, P2, gee, what, and like, seriously, PC, blah!”
P2: “This is exactly what I’m talking about! You try to even communicate what’s wrong in the first place and then the anti-PC crowd comes out and the person resists even acknowledging that they were wrong in the first place and socially then and…”
P4: “Hi there, I have no part of this, but I noticed that on the Internet communication works in this way where….”
How the conversation should actually go, ideally:
P1: “Something unintentionally offensive.”
P2: “Hey P1, I know you didn’t intend to be offensive because I know you from previous conversations, but I thought I would like to point out that for me, that comes across as offensive for these reasons.”
P1: “Oh I’m sorry. I’ll be aware of that next time, I really don’t know much about that perspective.”
P2: “If you would like to, we could continue this conversation further in PM and I can explain a lot of what’s going into my reaction to your statement.”
^ ha ha! Good points, DiB. :)
i’m tired of hearing that i’m being too fucking sensitive. white male privilege does actually exist and it shouldn’t be so fucking horrifying to have that pointed out. i need a break from this place obvs
My feeling is that the best possible course is to try to avoid assuming either intent or a one size fits all perspective as both lead to the sorts of bad blood arguments that do little to help the situation. That’s easier said than done of course, and there are times where not doing those things may seem desirable, but to bring out either the “you’re too sensitive” or to speak as some sort of authority on perception leads to problems as the first suggests an implicit comparison to some “norm” which in itself may hold bias, and the second privileges attitude over examination and both lead towards combativeness more than reconciliation generally.
There, of course, isn’t time enough or energy available to try and deal reasonably with all instances of perceptual disalignment, and there are many who would be threatened by even the attempt or simply don’t give a damn which makes the effort fruitless even if attempted. Still though, leaning too far in one directions or the other causes problems. Just as the attempt to deny the blinkered perceptions which have accrued through a history of white privilege and male privilege can be wrongheaded and harmful, so too can the acceptance of any feeling of hurt leading to some definition of “moral right” be problematic. This isn’t to imply that these two positions are equal either quantitatively or qualitatively, but to suggest that it is the openness to perceptual differences where common ground may be found and not in shutting down dialogue or automatic assumptions of perceptual or moral superiority due to circumstance or otherwise. This shit is complicated, no getting around that.
Odi don’t spank me because I paid a compliment to another woman on this thread
haha, no it was the “formal gathering place” aura of the let’s honour females thread I guess, compliments are quite acceptable lol – now how did you feel about me posting that woman doing her oven in her corset?!?
“try to avoid assuming either intent or a one size fits all perspective as both lead to the sorts of bad blood arguments that do little to help the situation.”
Meg – I thought of better sensual alternatives than men can think of for cleaning seductively. ;)
All right, what I was saying was for this particular situation, I wasn’t trying to say that if something isn’t intended to offend then it doesn’t matter. To put it in exaggerated terms, if the thread had been titled something like “Why do all ‘place minority group here’ have bad taste in film?” and somehow it wasn’t intended to offend, then of course it would be all right to point out to the person what is wrong about that and, well, be offended. But in this case, when it was over a title jokingly saying “or why women hate Zooey Deschanel”, it really shouldn’t have started all of this. Point out to that person that it might be offensive if you must, but it really shouldn’t end up spawning another thread where people have ended up on white male prejudice…
Yes, DiB’s “ideal conversation” should be the way.
ok i’m ready to admit that i am a hothead and should probably learn to keep my mouth shut sometimes.
but odi is right; if racist comments were made seems like it would be a much bigger deal. that is all
To put it in exaggerated terms, if the thread had been titled something like “Why do all ‘place minority group here’ have bad taste in film?” and somehow it wasn’t intended to offend, then of course it would be all right to point out to the person what is wrong about that and, well, be offended. But in this case, when it was over a title jokingly saying “or why women hate Zooey Deschanel”, it really shouldn’t have started all of this
THE DIFFERENT WAYS MEN AND WOMEN RESPOND TO ACTORS; OR WHY DO WOMEN HATE ZOOEY DESCHANEL?
THE DIFFERENT WAYS ETHNIC GROUPS RESPOND TO FILMMAKERS; OR WHY DO BLACK PEOPLE HATE WOODY ALLEN?
I don’t know. Not seeing much of a difference, to be honest. Intent counts for plenty but a sweeping generalization based on gender/ethnicity is a sweeping generalization based on gender/ethnicity. Nobody thinks Jazz is sexist, I’m sure, but It would also have been very sad if nobody had made a big deal out of it.
but odi is right; if racist comments were made seems like it would be a much bigger deal. that is all
I’m not sure that’s true. There are different levels of prejudice. If a statement falls within accepted (including “positive” stereotypes, cultural condescencion, self righteousness ) levels then it is treated as normal. If it exceeds them then yes, it would be a big deal. I’m not sure MUBI would be different.
yeah, point taken ^ and thx for your support
If a statement falls within accepted (including “positive” stereotypes, cultural condescencion, self righteousness ) levels then it is treated as normal. If it exceeds them then yes, it would be a big deal. I’m not sure MUBI would be different.
Very true, Hellshocked. I think this is why people get annoyed (I include myself here too because I am not above other people) when something they thought was not a prejudiced statement actually is. It’s probably most annoying to people who thought they got all the “PC” buttons right… thus all the protests of “but I’m not like that!” when you say “that says that you think like that.” It’s disconcerting when you find things in yourself that are leaning in an insular direction that you weren’t aware of, when you were thinking that you were proceeding in a much more broad-minded direction. At least a discussion about this will make you reflect on your own words, what might be making you say certain things and why.
Join the club, Ruby! :D It’s really not an issue of being a hothead, what’s more important is that after one cools down, one can see around the emotion. Which I think you do. (and I hope that I do too)
your statement above prolly describes how jazz is feeling about now. it’s ok, jazz, it’s safe to come out. we know you’re not a sexist! no more than the rest of us at least :P
Ha! I don’t think Jazz really thought about this stuff at all. He was probably horrified that we went off on that tangent… in a fact, I’m SURE he was horrified. LOL
HUG, Jazz! :)
Yeah, no problem being a hothead – I think it makes it more fun! It’s weird, cause I feel like we’re generally on the same page, Ruby, even when we’re arguing against each other.
doofu, i feel the same. i can never be angry with u in a serious way
Awww well that’s good! Sometimes I’m afraid you might never talk to me again! :)