I definitely come from the position of doing it on 8 with expired film, doing your own processing, editing, etc. You’ll learn MUCH more, be more connected in the process, etc.
Thanks! How should we approach audio then? hook a boom mic up to someone’s laptop?
Maybe. Is it dialogue heavy? You could go minimal dialogue and dub in post production, not shooting on faces for dialogue…
We were thinking of something mainly silent with a musical score to go along, with a little bit of dialogue.
At least for one of the ideas.
But how would we sync it when we played it back on a projector?
Well some people working that way just record the music separately and start the play-back when you start the film- it’s not perfect, but that doesn’t have to be the point…
Also you could do the thing entirely silent… or process and edit picture on film (for the experience) and then transfer the film to digital and do the sound that way….
Get some other opinions though. I have strange ways of working on things.
I can’t speak for film, but your camera, probably a DVX100, is awful for audio. Anything you do to record to it will not really change that, and I’m sure you know that. You can buy things like pre-amps that will boost the sound, but it will still be relatively “bad” sound, especially if you don’t know what you’re doing. Much easier to approach picture not knowing much, but it’s really hard if not impossible to wing sound.
Go look at www.dvxuser.com- they have a really good sound forum, with some really patient experts. They’ve helped me a lot with ideas and such, and I respect their expertise. They realize not everyone is a pro or rich, and can give you ideas about how to work with what you have.
Be warned though- some of these guys think they know EVERYTHING about the creative process, and they flat out do not. A lot of them rely on “pro standards”, which leaves zero room for taking chances or creativity, and they’re only into “well made” movies. They think just because they’ve been pro sound for 25 years that they know about being an artist or directing…in the same way they get annoyed at people who are ignorant of sound, they’re ignorant of art. SO, take everything with a grain of salt!
Nah man, it’s even crappier than that. It’s some consumer thing, not prosumer level like DVX.
Yeah then the sound is probably awful. But I mean, I don’t think that should stop someone. I’m sure you can do something with what you have, just don’t go the conventional route.
and on the more people disorganized thing- I’ll say this. Definitely know your limitations- all of them. Biting off more than you can chew is always very very bad.
For example- this past Spring I shot a 20 minute film on my DVX and it wasn’t so much the length but the technical aspects. I used all natural light and DPed myself and I liked the way it turned out. For sound I ran out of money, but thankfully my friend goes to a good school and had access to about 6 grand of sound equipment- mixer, 2500 dollar sound recorder, 1000 dollar mic, 800 dollar blimp kit. I felt so spoiled! We could boom the scene with this great sound equipment. now, I knew we were all inexperienced with sound, but I figured we had all learned enough lessons in the past to get at least some decent tracks. I’ve worked with the guy doing my sound before, and he made it seem like he had used this equipment on several occasions.
He hadn’t. He had no clue what he was doing. He didn’t know sound 101, like get good levels, or even what kind of mic he had. He had no clue which part of the mic even recorded the sound- no lie. I wanted to do tests before the shoot, but he reassured me he had it under control. Stupid me. My fault. Don’t ever let anyone talk you out of tests before you do ANYTHING. Big mistake on my part. Trust no one. Even after the bad sound we got, he still thinks he knows everyone. Even worse, I couldn’t find anyone that fit the two lead roles correctly, so i settled, and that compromised the movie further. I had to alter the roles so that the acting was very very wooden, and the ADR we HAD to do made it even worse. It was also pretty hard to find reliable people, and with a crew of 2 others I was struggling a lot.
But now I’m thinking of making another short with my DVX with no sync sound. No crew, no actors, no fancy dialog or sound work. I’m trying to focus on getting sounds and images separately then combining them in editing. I’m using my limitations, and it should work a lot better, because I’m doing what i know I can handle. A more traditional film with sync sound and actors requires at least a chunk of money and the RIGHT people, first and foremost.
I’m just saying all this stuff because I’ve done this constantly, where you are now, and inevitably jump the gun. So, you probably know what I mean. If you can get your hands on something like a Panasonic Gh-1 or a Canon 7D, it’d be better and cheaper than an HVX, unless this a big action movie. If throw the idea of sync sound out the window in your situation, you could make something really creative just by yourself.
And biting off more than we can chew is definitely what’s been happening. First thing we made, we had the story arc set up but it was entirely improv. It actually came out good, despite not having enough time to edit and a few light issues. But as soon as we started to try scripting things, everything we made was just awful. The focus went from production to remembering lines and all of it was pretty unbearable. Our idea now is to have a semi-silent “spaghetti eastern”- basically a Western on the beach. I’m not sure what to do about that, because it’s all visual, and I don’t know if I trust our camera skills enough to justify spending all that money on film and chemicals, but on the other hand this little camcorder probably won’t be enough… I guess the best option is the friend with the HVX. Hopefully things will improve if we make a steadicam or something, I dunno.
I know we’re just kids and there’s tons of time to improve and not a lot of things we make will be amazing, but I also kind of want to make something that doesn’t blow…
Yeah, I understand. I’m in my early 20s, have been making stuff since I was 16, and still am not very good. But I read something once by a filmmaker or film critic that said that we don’t give filmmakers enough time to grow anymore. Everyone expects a polished master to pop out of film school at 24 or whatever. It doesn’t happen. I plan on spending the rest of my 20s making shit films and being dissatisfied and pushing myself and learning and growing. I think filmmaking is one of those arts that gets better with age. Patience is the key, I think.
But with the stuff like steadycam, etc., I wouldn’t get stuck up on it. Because if you start using it, you’ll overuse it, you won’t cut some shots because they look good, etc. If you have a lot of limitations, you start getting much more original and creative. On the flip side, it’s probably better to get all that stuff out of your system now, then leave it behind and move on.
“Everyone expects a polished master to pop out of film school at 24 or whatever. It doesn’t happen. I plan on spending the rest of my 20s making shit films and being dissatisfied and pushing myself and learning and growing.”
This.
In regard to the film versus digital thing, you say you want the movie to “look good”, one thing you need to do is decide how you want it to look. If you want an 8mm film “look”, then you will not get that with digital, anywhere. If you want a crisper, colorful “look”, you can stretch that with low end digital equipment with luck and lighting, but you’re not gonna get it out of expired 8mm footage, which tends to look a little faded anyway. The faded look can work for you, the digital look can work for you, depending on your intentions.
—PolarisDiB
I wanted to have expired colour film because then the oranges/purples would be more prevalent, though it’d be a bit faded. Or maybe black and white because it’s cheaper/easier and would look damn cool anyway. Generally, I like the look of film better (I shoot film for normal still photography).
The idea of this is to work on our camera skills/visual storytelling I think, and to have fun making something we know is going to be laughably bad.
Hey, Mr. V. First, I appreciate your desire to sincerely ask for insight from others. Says a a lot about you.
Here’s my personal conviction: do the best with what you have without spending more than what you comfortably can afford.
Start with what you have, not a creative vision. For all you know, your creative vision could cost millions to actualize effectively. That’s the problem with most beginners: they dream too big! In the world of film, you need to start by dreaming small. I call it thinking outside the box inside the box.
Ask yourself what your box is. An old Panasonic with crappy sound? Then dream within that box. An 8mm camera with old film stock, then do so accordingly.
Also, really, really ask yourself what your primary goal is for the film. Technical? Narrative? Stylistic? Or simply to be productive? Focus on just one or two end goals, since that will help you remain focused and more effective.
That’s my two cents worth. Just do the best with what you have. I personally feel many creative types miss great opportunities within restrictions. Making something captivating, beautiful, honest and intelligent out of nothing is a lot more noteworthy than doing so with a lot. Additionally, I feel a lot of folks focus on technicalities because they are too lazy, afraid and insecure to focus on the art….
Give Lynch, Kiarostami, or Egoyan your shitty Panasonic and a couple tapes and they’ll come up with something captivating…
Though digital does not replicate film well, keep in mind that you should already have or can easily download plug-ins for Final Cut Pro that will give you prevalent oranges/purples and faded looks. Most people avoid them because they look like shit at their default levels but if you spend less than fifteen minutes tweaking them and experimenting, you CAN, in fact, get some pretty gorgeous stuff (just be light on the saturation, you add one and it starts to look better, you add two and everything goes to hell).
Again, probably not the look you’re looking for; I’m just bringing it up because it’s always another option, and one that is attainable within the experience and concerns of the original post. I stayed away from digital color correction for a while but I asked my coworker to show me around and it takes two minutes for beginners, less for the experienced. Just as long as you don’t ever fall into “We’ll fix it in post!” mentality, color options in Final Cut Pro are great tools.
—PolarisDiB
I suppose it comes down to my two fears about this.
1. If we manage to actually pull off a good visual story on crappy equipment,it might not be realized to its full extent because of this.
2. Chances are that if we use good equipment we’ll waste it and turn out some piece of crap that doesn’t make any sense. \
We’re fucked either way, so perhaps the best idea is to not bother, and continue spending the summer making rock sculptures?
Mr. V, with all due respect: did you read my post? Not sure if you agree or disagree; however, based on what you wrote about, you apparently disagree with what I had to say.
I agree with #2, but you’re completely and utterly wrong with #1. Re-read what you wrote, “If we manage to actually pull of a good visual story…” In that case, crappy equipment or not, you did it, you pulled it off. Sure, it might not be “realized to its full extent,” but who the hell cares? And what does that mean anyway? Is that even possible?
Make the most with what you have….
Mr. V, don’t get flustured or anxious! Save that despair for when the film is actually happening and you have to work it out anyway.
You mentioned briefly about making a movie so-bad-it’s-good. I say you pick an idea, hold it closely, develop it the best you can, and make the best movie possible with it. When it turns out to not be perfect, which it will no matter what equipment you have, you look at the result, figure out what happened and what you did wrong, take that into account, get another idea, and start out all over again. And again. And again. And again.
Robert Rodriguez: “If you want to learn how to play a guitar, you sit in a basement and strum on the cords until your fingers bleed. Why should moviemaking be any different?”
You’re going to bleed, so start spilling it. If there isn’t blood from you on this very site by the end of the summer, I am going to personally track you down when I go back Stateside in November and draw blood from you myself, the significant difference being that if you do it yourself you bleed doing something you love, whereas if I draw blood for you it’s just some crazy freak from the Internet somehow appeared in your home. Which experience would you rather remember?
—PolarisDiB
Follow: I did, and I agree to some extent, but we’ve had it happen where we’ll shoot a perfectly good scene and the footage is literally unusable. I do agree that it was a stupid way of trying to say what I meant. And I was going to edit that and get rid of that bit when I first posted but didn’t. Sorry for coming off like that.
Polar, another idea we had was for one of those, and while it would be a lot more work I reckon it would be easier. Guess I’ll put the silent stuff on hold for now then. And I guess I would do well to avoid possible vampiric events.
All I can say is don’t lose hope. I wasn’t much better when I was in High School, so don’t think you’re behind in any way. PolarisDiB’s comments are right on. It’s really a trial and error game, in other words you’ll get nowhere if you don’t constantly try and try again. After all, that’s the basis of “talent.” If you don’t like the actual experience of film making, you probabally shouldn’t be doing it. Coming from where you are, however, you obviously seem interested. In any case, I wouldn’t worry too, too much about your equipment. If it’s a great story, even if the production values are poor, that’ll show though in the end. If you’re really bothered that much by it however, just get around the issue all together: make 2D or 3D animation (which is generally what I do, but don’t let me push you into it!).
In any case, most of the “problems” I saw with the video you posted above relate to the production values. If you really have the time, you could try re-dubbing your movies. It’s a standard industry practice, otherwise you’d hear “ah f*ck, I dropped the coffee!” every 20 minutes in the background of most major productions (trust me, I’ve been there). Another major concern is editing, and I would pretty much just recommend splicing up movies and tv series or what have you and trying your hand at making AMV’s and the like. You’ll get some real experience with editing, and YouTube is full of that sort of stuff anyway (who knows, you might even get hundreds of thousands of vues). As far as cinematography is concerned, just watch more movies. Try to keep an eye out for technical details (where and how to cut, etc. etc.). In fact, that’s probabally the best piece of advice I could give you. You’d be surprised. True appreaciation will actually help you practically.
Perhaps the best thing to do, however, would just be for you to take a job as a PA. Even if it’s not paid, you’ll learn alot about the technicalities of film making. I’ve probabally got around 2,200 hours on movie and tv sets that way, just offer to work for nothing (yah I know, it sucks).
“Everyone expects a polished master to pop out of film school at 24 or whatever. It doesn’t happen. I plan on spending the rest of my 20s making shit films and being dissatisfied and pushing myself and learning and growing.”
I definately wouldn’t speak too, too highly of film schools. They’re prefectly fine for some, but not for everyone. I couldn’t tell you how many people I wen’t to High School with that ended up taking jobs working a mail room after Film School. What’s really important is a passion for the matter. I’m still in the process of finishing off a literary degree, and I’ve more experience with cinema than most of my old High School friends. Just keep at it, mate, that’s all there is to it. Don’t ever get discouraged. It’s all just about a love of actually making movies (and by that I mean the technical side).
Mr. V.
Alright, I’ve got a few shorts planned out for this summer with a couple friends. We know camera basics etc, how to use FCP and all that, but haven’t done anything big outside of the RISD classes we took. In the past, our writing has been a strong point but production itself has always been a bit rushed due to deadlines. This summer we’ve decided to turn things around and do something, well, actually good.
I was wondering what I should do for equipment. I have an solid old Panny DV camcorder, nothing special, but it turns out nice colours. One problem we have is audio, so I figured I’d get a decent shotgun mic, and open up the camera to splice a 3.5mm input jack to the internal mic wiring, so we can effectively use both. But I am aware that this camera is by no means amazing. The friend who I am making these with has an old 8mm camera and projector that his grandfather (a filmmaker himself) used to have. We were thinking of getting a shit ton of expired film on ebay and developing/editing it ourselves. Another option would be to get someone with an HVX to help, which is entirely possible. However with more people production might be a bit more unorganized and take longer.
What should we do?
(note: an example of the pure and utter bullshit we did for a class project. poor lighting, background noise, we forgot a tripod, etc.)