I often recommend Dutch director Marleen Gorris’s A QUESTION OF SILENCE as an outright, if not radical, feminist film. I know it’s available as a VHS but don’t know if it’s out on DVD.
However, defining what constitutes a “feminist” film, as well as what constitutes a “sexist” or “misogynistic” movie, is often a tricky business.
For example, many Hitchcock films have been attacked as being sexist, yet in her book THE WOMEN WHO KNEW TOO MUCH feminist Tania Modleski argues that Hitch’s films are ambivalent about women: there are often strong women who battle the patriarchy (MARNIE, PSYCHO, etc.), even if they end up being victims of it; and there are also films that show the suffering of women under a male-dominated system. I’m simplifying her argument to encapsulate it in 1-2 sentences but I want to emphasize that these labels are not always cut and dried.
There’s also a film like BLOW-UP, which has an ostensibly misogynistic protagonist, the photographer, but does that mean that THE FILM (and Antonioni) espouses that same prejudice? Perhaps the film is presenting a “bad example” of a male chauvinist so that we can learn from his bad behavior. Although when the film was released in 1966, many young male viewers thought that Thomas was “cool” and “hip” and “Mod.”
In short, I’m not always sure that having “kick-ass, tough, smart and in the leagues of the men” females in a film is enough to classify it as “feminist.” Conversely, “overly blatant sexism and misogyny in a film” may not be sufficient grounds for condemning a film, especially when the film itself seems to be working against that sort of interpretation. Who would argue, for instance, that LA STRADA is a sexist film simply because Zampano abuses Gelsomina, especially when we see his heartfelt regret and remorse at the end for how he treated her?
Oh, I envy you. I have always wanted to get my hands on even a VHS copy of A Question of Silence. But I don’t even think it’s available here, ughh. I have been hearing a lot of good things about it and it seems like the kind of feminist film that I would really love and adore. I WANT TO WATCH IT SO BADLY.
I guess it’s a matter of personal opinion and the way you look at it. But in some films no matter how I look at it, they just seem so sexist/misogynistic. For example, Leave Her to Heaven. Gene Tierney is depicted as obsessive and possessive of her husband, clingy, manipulative and selfish, wanting her husband for himself (and men back then seem to be afraid of these kind of women since they want their freedom and want to be independent). And she is jealous of the other woman whom her husband hangs around with. And she desperately even kills herself so no one else could lays their hands on her husband. That doesn’t say anything positive much for women. And in the end, the woman whom Gene was so jealous of does end up with her husband, showing that Tierney’s suspicions were true. The whole time I was watching the film, I just kept thinking that this seemed like an anti-feminist propaganda film (although there weren’t feminists back then). It’s so absurd creating a female caricature such as that.
I feel the same way about Hitchcock’s films, well except for Vertigo and Shadow of a Doubt. Some say that Rear Window is misogynist because James Stewart just sits there while the women do all the work, he enjoyed as a sadistic voyeur watching Grace Kelly climb that building and go to the room, etc. but I don’t think it is at all. But I think I loved it before because it had a courageous woman who decided to just go inside the room even though it was dangerous.
Well, if the films do tend to glorify or make the viewers sympathize with a character who is blatantly misogynistic/sexist, it does makes you think if whether the film was somehow created with ill sexist/misogynistic intentions or whether the creators have a poor or negative view of women.
You’re right, I guess kick-ass, tough, smart and in the leagues of the men" is not the best description of what should be classified as feminist but close enough. I mean, the women in Sin City are tough and do kick ass but based on the tortures they go through, their depictions as mere prostitutes and strippers, and the abuse they take from men, they wouldn’t be exactly what I would call positive portrayals of women and feminist.
Straw Dogs should be your kind of thing.
Oh, and why don’t you include A Clockwork Orange as well in your recommendations?
for a good example of misogyny watch von Trier’s “Antichrist”.
and by ‘good’ I mean the example, not the quality of the film.
Although I do love Dancer in the Dark, Lars von Trier’s films tend to be pretty misogynistic, sadistically letting his female protagonists suffer and not letting them have any redemption, hope, or vengeance. Even Bjork’s character just lets herself suffer even when Catherine Deneuve gives her a chance, and the ones who deserve punishment in his films don’t tend to suffer as much as his female protagonists.
Sarah Conor in Terminator 2 has always been one of my favorite feminist women on film. She’s an embattled, unapologetic militant whose femininity never even comes up as a topic. Along with Ripley from Aliens, Sarah Conor is a blueprint for a strong female character crossing gender lines without being controversial about it.
@SCORPIORISING: A CLOCKWORK ORANGE is a classic example of what I mentioned above, namely, a film that depicts sexist ACTS (several rapes and beatings, etc.) but whose misogynistic message is filtered or focalized through a negative character, Alex. I think the film’s “message” or Theme is much more complex than just misogyny OR its opposite.
I think we’ve all become way too self conscious in this society about how we depict people in art (and I say this as a leftist), and art is what suffers. There should be more of everything that bothers us in art, there should be less sugar coating, less work-by-committee, fewer spins, fewer audience test surveys. Everything should be put out there because when ideas compete in a truly free arena, I honestly believe the best ones always win. Virtuousness by straitjacket is not true virtue.
Just stopping in to see if any hot babes have posted yet. Doesn’t look like it, but I can never know for sure.
^^Shotzi’s gay for women.
bonerz
David Lynch’s films are very feminist. Some are the opposite of what you’re looking for since they’re all essentially about how badly women are treated. Blue Velvet doesn’t really have a strong woman, instead she’s a victim. All the women are victims in Twin Peaks, inhabited by the evil of the Black Lodge, but in the series, Donna is a very strong woman, and in the movie, Laura Palmer is quite a Helen of Troy (a friend of mine wrote a paper on that). There’s the femme fatales of Patricia Arquette in Lost Highway and Lara Elena Harring in Mulholland Dr. as well as the very strong Betty, also in Mulholland Dr.
Inland Empire is Lynch’s most feminist film, but like Blue Velvet, the female-lead, played by Laura Dern, is a woman in trouble that has some moments of strength, but is ultimately a victim in the end.
Oh, right, I originally posted this thread to check out the hot men. But I guess my expectations were too high….
@ Justin: I’m not saying that films should be politically correct and very uptight. You know, but somehow I also expect them to be defiant and rebellious or against the norms and the conventions, and so far, I haven’t seen a lot of those yet. Well for example, Trouble Every Day was something different. At first, the woman here was the cannibal, not the victim. Her target of course was a horny teenager as well as other horny men. But then again, there’s Vincent Gallo who literally eats pussy which put me off the film.
And sometimes since there are a lot of horror films that get a kick out of torturing and killing women, I want to watch films that get a kick out of torturing, killing and raping men for a change. I know that sounds hypocritical and twisted of me but I want to see those for a change. Let’s see how fanboys react to it.
@ Jim: I dunno, I would call David Lynch anything but a feminist especially from what I have watched at Wild at Heart. And women in his films just seem to be cardboard cutouts, caricatures, the embodiment of David Lynch’s deepest fantasies, hence, the lesbian scene at Mulholland Dr.
While, of course, there may be films and characters that are blatantly misogynistic, I tend to think that it is MORE sexist to limit the way females are portrayed in art to strong, positive examples. After all, there ARE women who are weak, foolish, clingy, neurotic, insane, and despicable; we should be able to see these sorts of women (as well as ones who are strong, kind, wise, clever, and resourceful) in our films. After all, men have been portrayed in the full scope of their humanity, good and bad. I want to see the infinite range of definitions of what it is to be a female human being. So long as the characters are complex and fully formed, bring on the flaws.
Also, I find it interesting that we (myself included) tend to find strong, self-sufficient, but morally reprehensible female characters less sexist (and even positive) than female characters who are good and kind, but weak and dependent.
Justin, I appreciate your sentiment, but I think we’re closer to what you describe than you think. Talking about movies, and media in general, I’d suggest that we’re in one of the most liberated times. Let me try to justify this point a little. Just to be clear, I’m responding at length to your post because I appreciate the sentiment, and I take it seriously.
Your point about movies being tested, filtered, surveyed, and created by a committee of trained technical and PR people: this point mostly applies to blockbuster films. Those are the types of movies that are thoroughly watered down by publicity requirements; they often end up being bland, but that’s because they’re 95% entertainment and cultural self-indulgence, and only 5% art. Also, these “watered down” films have the least provocative content, but they’re often the most offensive, because they embody all the stereotypes that our culture is so comfortable with.
Luckily, this isn’t the only type of film. There are still independent movies being produced that are genuinely controversial… Anti-Christ would be a great example. Many of these films (Anti-Christ, The Limits of Control, Goodbye Solo, etc) are actively challenging our reservations and preconceptions about race and gender. There are even films designed specifically to disgust, or that genuinely express misogynistic and racist ideas. However, these only find an extremely limited market, because obviously nobody is up for funding propaganda.
I can see where your concern comes from… being part of a community of critics, one ends up feeling like there’s a total cultural obsession with race, gender, orientation, and representation, and that there’s an addiction to indignation and controversy. But the world needs certain people… especially critics and journalists… to think like that about media. There needs to be an undercurrent of harsh self-criticism for our society to remain fair and self-aware. The media itself isn’t controlled by those special interests, but the special interests and focus groups have a strong influence on the means of distribution, alongside the more fickle beast of the “mass market”.
And let me tell you, the “mass market” isn’t worried about filtering out racism, sexism, and homophobia. General audiences often love movies that are offensive, nationalistic, and unsympathetic. The good ideas may be winning in the long run, but the bad ones are still alive and well. That’s one of the reasons we need critics to sort out some of the prejudices and assumptions in films that most people just enjoy by default.
But ultimately, what I’ve described, above, is actually what you said you wanted. The shitty ideas — blatant racism, sexism, etc — have been ruled out because there’s been a long dialog about them, and the public has decided they just don’t want to go see them. The more subtle ideas — the ones that cause controversy among critics, and tend to generate mixed feelings from viewers — those are the ones that are still on the table, that are still competing in the “free arena.” And anyone who wants to make films is free to do it… they just have to be accountable to critical judgment and public opinion.
Shelley – it’s important to note: nobody is talking about limiting the portrayals of women here. Public opinion and representational trends do that for us, and they tend to favor the shallowest depictions, whether those are negative (sexist) or positive (tokenist). Unfortunately, films are full of the depictions you discuss: neurotic, cruel, clingy, dependent, obsessive, catty, submissive, or cruel females… but we know we can’t control that, except by identifying them, after the fact. The question in this forum was about recognizing positive (preferably well-rounded) portrayals of women, not limiting negative ones.
@ Shelley: Good and kind yet weak and dependent… I am suddenly reminded of the typical secretaries and housewives in classic films. Definitely sexist, a patriarchal and typical view of women.
Strong, self-sufficient, but morally reprehensible, here you’re describing someone like Scarface, almost every guy in The Godfather, and every guy in films that somehow people (mostly men) look up to or admire. If they didn’t admire or look up to those characters, fanboys wouldn’t even consider them “the best movies OAT” (which of course they’re not; they’re exaggerating). Somehow, it’s ok for men to have images like that while it’s sexist to prefer strong, self-sufficient, but morally reprehensible female characters over kind-hearted weaklings? It makes you think somehow.
Scorpiorising: I understand what you’re saying, but I think most serious viewers of films like ‘Scarface’ and ‘The Godfather’ recognize that the characters are unethical and far from admirable. However, though I may condemn Michael Corleone, I must admit that I often find myself delighting in the femme fatale, however awful her actions or intentions, because she’s a “strong woman”. I don’t think I’m alone in doing that, and I often wonder whether years of patriarchal oppression can justify that.
Scorpioking or whoever, I’m not gonna lie, I’m a pretty hot dewd. I like to curl paint cans with my shirt off, get all sweaty. Awww, yeah. You know what I’m sayin’.
My favorite feminist film (whatever that really means) is The Silence of the Lambs. Clarice don’t take shit from no man, not even Lecter or Buffalo Bill. The films design intends for you to see this world of serial killers through the lens of a woman who is often looked at as an inferior or potential victim. Clarice won’t be victimized by the killers or by the FBI. She’ll rise above it all
Moderated
Tom Cruise’s character in MAGNOLIA.
@ScorpioRising:“And sometimes since there are a lot of horror films that get a kick out of torturing and killing women, I want to watch films that get a kick out of torturing, killing and raping men for a change. I know that sounds hypocritical and twisted of me but I want to see those for a change. Let’s see how fanboys react to it.”
If such obscure and esoteric films as Audition, Deliverance, Hard Candy, the Hostel series, Misery, Pulp Fiction, the Saw series, Sin City, and Teeth were anything to go by you’d almost think they’d react to it quite favorably.
How could SporpioKing possibly be a “dike”? He or she is a human bring!
Is the name Shitzu? You’re for laughs XD. I don’t even know if you’re insulting me or just doing it for the amusement of it all.
“Lars von Trier’s films tend to be pretty misogynistic, sadistically letting his female protagonists suffer and not letting them have any redemption, hope, or vengeance.” – Scorpiorising
Dogville contradicts that last part.
I see what you’re saying though, but “sexism” and “misogyny” are such general terms that could refer to any number of things. Violence directed towards women in film doesn’t necessarily make the film (or those involved in making it) misogynistic. Would violence towards men (which occurs in practically every film ever made) in film be promoting misandry? I’d say no because the idea is ludicrous. It all depends on the film’s tone and context.
Oh and don’t get me started on “sexist” overtones in cinema. Carpenter’s The Thing in its day was criticized as being sexist merely because there were no actresses in the film … so that term requires much more of an in-depth inquiry in regard to film.
Peckinpah’s work has been criticized of being misogynistic because often in his films women are abused in one way or another. Sure, that makes his characters misogynistic, but does that make him (and I personally believe Peckinpah to have realized man’s “natural”, though by no means inexcusable, condescending stance towards women and voiced that through his films)? By filming Seven, does that mean that Fincher condones serial murder?
I think a lot of people (of both sexes) are actively looking to identify things as sexist, racist, and misogynistic – and therefore find it.
Dogville is a film about a woman who escapes her corrupt patriarch and seeks independence, is abused and raped, and is forced to go back to her father, who then exacts revenge on her behalf and she ends up right back where she started. Never at any point does the power lie in her hands. So I wouldn’t say Dogville deviates much from Lars von Triers’ pattern, and his latest film is pretty much an exercise in misogyny.
scorpiorising
I saw a recent topic about racism in film, and I decided to do something somewhat similar. Am I the only one who is put off when there’s overly blatant sexism and misogyny in a film? And recently, I have watched a lot of sexist/misogynist movies since most of the movies that I watch are old classics (where the women are obviously not liberated yet) and well even modern movies are guilty too.
Sometimes, I just ignore especially when some of the women in the film are, you know, kick-ass, tough, smart and in the leagues of the men or I just let it slide sometimes (for example in Phenomena, my most favorite horror film OAT, I let it slide for little reasons such as Inga the chimp does have revenge in the end, some men in the film are also victims and get brutal murders too and Jennifer Connelly does have superpowers, haha).
Any ideas of movies with positive female roles, dominant and strong women, feminist themes, etc.? And no, films directed by women aren’t necessarily feminist. For example, I don’t see anything feminist in Catherine Breillat, Lina Wertmuller and Vera Chytilova’s works; they’re just masochistic and aren’t even defiant at all.