Film Education for My Children

I’m not familiar with Earle, but it looks pretty good to me.

Sorry – this thread is all over the place, and now I’m just making it more so!

Mischa said about Fantasia, “In my view, Stokowski totally butchered Stravinsky’s Le sacre musically.” Which I don’t totally agree with. He rearranged sections and changed some of the tunes here and there, but I feel like it worked really well. I’m amazed at how creatively they rearranged that music to tell a story entirely their own… and it matches so well! Particularly the choice to restate the opening bassoon solo at the very end of the section with a shot of the sun. That part gives me goosebumps every time because it suggests a theme that I wish more movies addressed: that everything is the same now as it always was and everything will always be the same. The dinosaurs may be dead, but the sun is still there and we are on planets and all the laws of nature are still in effect and they always will be. Chilling.

Earle was the film’s chief background designer and color stylist, so he was the one largely responsible for how the film looks.

Fantasia was the first movie I saw in the theater, when I was about 8 years old. I remember it being VERY long for an 8 year old. And overwhelming, even a little scary. BUT, I was raised on classical music so I’d say it’d be pretty predictable that that would be the movie my parents would introduce me to in the theater. Of all the sequences, the dinosaurs in the evening shown under the water, swimming and preying, was the one that stuck in my head. I remember having nightmares for a long time afterward that I was under black water and occasionally would see very large creatures swim past me.

We have the DVD at home. Have watched it many times with the kids. One of the ones they got a kick out of was the sequence I entitled “babies’ butts” — the one with the cherubs and very silly Greek mythology creatures. I think they liked the bubble gum colors a lot. The other one that was always requested was the dinosaur one, and the last one about Bald Mountain with the devils. Mickey Mouse was less popular, and one of the prettiest ones of the fairies was suprisingly uninteresting to my super hero girl and boy.

Oh yes, and we always skipped over the parts with “the bald guy” (the guy who introduces the segments).

@Drunken Father Figure of Old

Ah, I probably sounded like a massive traditionalist or something, lol. DON’T MESS WITH THE ARTIST’S VISION!!! But your explanation of why you like the Stravinsky segment is actually quite interesting, so I’ll keep it in mind next time I watch it.

@Jazz

There’s gotta be fun, imaginative ways to present different images and conceptions of girls, boys and romantic relationships.

Yeah, I understand your concerns. I’ll try to think of some good examples of what you’re looking for and get back to you.

“There’s gotta be fun, imaginative ways to present different images and conceptions of girls, boys and romantic relationships.”

Well, remember that Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Cinderella and "Pinocchio*, for example, were 1) made as many as seventy or eighty years ago, and 2) were adapted from folk tales and such, so of which date back to the 1600s, so you have to bear that in mind.

^ Matt, exactly.

Although, I’d say we got over women’s lib pretty fast with all the extremely retro images and behaviors of women these days. Jazz I’d say you’ve got a whole lot more than movies to contend with when it comes to bringing up a girl during this period of time, both regarding her image of herself and in what manner she thinks the opposite sex will go for her.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Whoever decided to make THESE kinds of shoes popular for women outside of streetwalkers and strippers deserves to be impaled on them:

^ Not to mention they’re just UGLY? (i.e. platform high heels)

And a few steps short of foot binding.

Mischa- you are right about the butchering of Stravinsky in Fantasia, though I find the Beethoven butchering worse. The spirit behind the film is what makes it all work though- You really sense the animators celebrating the music. I can’t imagine such an imagistic film about music being made like that today (for children).If made today it would have constant interruptions of the music and lots of singing in funny voices.

If made today it would have constant interruptions of the music and lots of singing in funny voices.

Either that or it’d have music competing with people talking, you know the kind that’s all “emote-y.”

Ugh.

But you know there are still beautiful films being made for children, animated or not. And clever and funny too.

Let’s not get into that old man/woman kind of talk — “Back in my day, sonny, things were…”

And I have all the right to throw that kind of talk out the window, because I bet I’m at least 2x the age of most of the posters on the forum (if not most of the mubi members). So if I ain’t showin’ my age, you people shouldn’t be either!

@Odilonvert. If people can’t say “Back in my day” on a thread called “Film Education for My Children” then there is no safe place for curmudgeons! (of any age). Maybe there could be a “Film Education for Ungrateful Children” that could have a more curmudgeonly slant. I am joking of course.

I watched the Wallace and Gromit shorts with my son this past weekend. He loved them. (My daughter still isn’t very interested in movies.)

In light of Ari’s announcement, I thought this would be an appropriate thread to dredge up. I’m sure Ari has already started thinking about.

Here’s an issue you’re probably going to have to eventually face (especially if you have a boy): when and whether to allow viewing of superhero movies. I’ve given in to my four year already by allowing him to watch animated superhero films (he loved The Incredibles), including the older Popeye episodes (which he loves). But I’m wondering if that was a wise move. I think back on my childhood, and I watched a ton of violent movies and developed a taste for action films. My parents didn’t allow me to watch R rated films until my teenage years, but I grew up watching a lot of westerns, war films, cop movies, martial arts films and those car chase films of the 70s. I guess I can be aggressive, but I’ve never really acted out in violent ways. Still, maybe seeing those films have fostered more violent attitudes or a certain comfort level with violence that is less than ideal. I have a feeling that my son will be pretty aggressive, whether I show him these films or not, and hopefully we’ll raise him in a way that he won’t be behaved violently. So is there a compelling reason to hold back on these type of films/TV shows.

Jazz, to the extent that one can get to know someone on a forum like this, you seem among the most laid back and even tempered folks out there. If you ended up that way despite a steady diet of violent entertainment as a kid, my guess is your own son will be far more influenced by your parenting than any movie/show, which I’m sure you can explain as being pretend.

My father grew up during WWII. He is still obsessed with war and weapons of war and he passed this interest on to my brother when he was little.

Neither of them are violent people. Neither of them, for that matter, have entered the armed forces nor own any weapons, for example, a tank.

I think the issue of violent kids is a LOT more complex than letting your kid, say, play with a toy gun. The culture of men, as opposed to women, will ALWAYS involve some aggression. That means your son’s eyes should be open to that, both in the present, and in a historical sense. This is part of the culture of men, like it or not.

Instead of cutting him off from something that is a part of human nature – the urge to murder and harm – you should be, when he is old enough, watching these movies with him, and then talking about it afterward. The most potent example of manhood is the one that you yourself provide for your son. If he looks up to YOU, and you are an ethical and good person, that will make an impact on both how he thinks and how he acts.

Instead of cutting him off from something that is a part of human nature – the urge to murder and harm – you should be, when he is old enough, watching these movies with him, and then talking about it afterward. The most potent example of manhood is the one that you yourself provide for your son.

I agree with this, especially the last part. To be clear, though, I’m not trying to cut him off completely from violence or aggression. The question involves when, what and how much. As implied in your post, there is a wrong time and probably some inappropriate content to show your child. I agree with this, so I’m wondering:

>When is the right time to show kids superhero films and TV programs?
>Are there certain types that are OK and others that are not? For example, I think there’s a difference between Popeye versus a Michael Bay’s Transformers.
>How often should a four year be allowed to watch these films/programs? Right now, he gets to watch films or TV programs on the weekend, and we try not to let these go on for hours and hours, either.

A four year old has an improved attention span compared to any age younger than that, but they shouldn’t be plopped in front of a tv for hours and hours because just look at them after that — they look stoned! A lot of their learning should match their energy level, i.e. they should be running around and burning off that excess energy, using their motor skills. Which is what they prefer anyway.

At 4, my son was watching superhero cartoons as well as other superhero-oriented type stuff on CN for a little while every day, but not movies yet. He didn’t start seeing those, I think starting with Spiderman and X-men on the tv, till 6/7. Part of this is because of the realism of the violence, I didn’t want him to have nightmares or think that some guy was going to come and do bad stuff to us all in the middle of the night. The other thing is that 2+ hours of watching anything is a long stretch for a little person. Try having them sit at a dinner table till they’re done — no strapping them to a high chair!

Part of this is because of the realism of the violence, I didn’t want him to have nightmares or think that some guy was going to come and do bad stuff to us all in the middle of the night.

Good point. Actually, a film can freak out my son even if it’s not realistic or seemingly violent. He’ll get scared if the suspense is too intense, for example.

Then, it sounds like you need to go slow with him.

It’s a case by case basis thing.

Yeah, I think it’s tricky in that you want to raise a child that’s able to deal with aggressive behavior (not necessarily just violence), so while you don’t want to saturate them with violent imagery, you don’t want to raise them with an unrealistic understanding of the world.

“How often should a four year be allowed to watch these films/programs? Right now, he gets to watch films or TV programs on the weekend, and we try not to let these go on for hours and hours, either.”

Other than while we’re getting ready in the morning or some other circumstance where we can’t keep an eye on them, I make my kids play outside until they’re either exhausted or fighting with one another, then they can come in and watch TV as a wind down thing.

Right.

or fighting with one another

This is one of THE most annoying things about having more than one kid. It’s great that they play together and are out of your hair, but then there’s the flip side — having to be the referree. UGH.

so while you don’t want to saturate them with violent imagery, you don’t want to raise them with an unrealistic understanding of the world.

Right, but TV and film aren’t really realistic though (read: superhero ones). Speaking of which, what are some good children’s films/TV that deal with violence in a realistic way. Do you guys think the Grimm fairy tales do a good job of dealing with and introducing violence in a realistic and healthy way?

Odi said, This is one of THE most annoying things about having more than one kid. It’s great that they play together and are out of your hair, but then there’s the flip side — having to be the referree. UGH.

Yep. The thing that drives me crazy is not seeing what really happened—in which case you know you get the, “He started it! Nuh-uh, she did!” And if I had to watch them constantly, that would drive me nuts. But kids are great. (Say it three times and smile :)

No no no . . . when I’m saying “realistic” I’m talking about not sheltering them to the point that they don’t know how to negotiate ordinary playground situations and such (I actually think that realistic violence is generally inappropriate for kids this age) a little later on in life. As far as what to use, I think anything that you feel is appropriate for your own kids will work, only be prepared to talk about it. I read Grimms to mine, and just soften it up a little here and there. But I’m always hesitant to recommend specific things since I really only know my own kids.

I don’t have kids, so take this with a grain of salt since I’m only thinking of my own upbringing and how I would like any kids I did have to see the world, or at least culture, but my goal, as much as it would be possible given the particular responses of teh kids, would be to show them as much non-popular culture films while they were young in order to help them get at least some familiarity with wider conventions or options. By non-popular culture, i don’t mean anything too radical, just a variety of things which aren’t “current” to what seems most popular at the moment since I figure they’d pick that stuff up on their own as things go on. I’m thinking of old movies, black and white stuff sometimes, from a variety of genres, and if possible, some easy to understand and fun films, possibly dubbed, from outside the US. To my mind it’s too easy to get caught up in the conventions of the day as seeming the “right” way of things making it harder later on to adapt to other possibilities. That’s kind of how I came into the culture, since television was a very different thing when I was young, and while I certainly wouldn’t want any kids I had to be too much like me, I do hold the value of having a broad perspective dear enough that I would push for it best I could, while making damn sure they got off their asses and went outside even more.

One thing to note — once your kids get to school age, they’ll be asking to see things which you might not think appropriate. For example, my son keeps asking to see the “Chuckie” movies and even brought up Friday the 13th, because his friends, mind you fellow 8 year olds, have seen it.

Considering that a spider on the wall not far from his bed was bugging him before bedtime, I’d say my decision to say “Not now, you’re too young,” was appropriate.

@Matt

No no no . . . when I’m saying “realistic” I’m talking about not sheltering them to the point that they don’t know how to negotiate ordinary playground situations and such (I actually think that realistic violence is generally inappropriate for kids this age) a little later on in life.

Oh, how to handle conflict in its various forms with others. Yeah, that’s a given for me. But I’m open to some forms of realistic violence. For example, the first thing I thought of was the film, My Bodyguard. Have you seen that? (Matt Dillon plays a bully.) I think it’s probably inappropriate for a four year old, but later. I was just wondering if any form of violence in films, books or TV would be appropriate. (I’ve been reading Where the Wild Things Are quite a bit and I do think that definitely touches on violence and aggression, although I’m not sure that’s really translating over to my children.)

I read Grimms to mine, and just soften it up a little here and there. But I’m always hesitant to recommend specific things since I really only know my own kids.

I take that last part as a given, and, fwiw, it’s good hear what other parents are doing. (The Grimm line made me laugh because I remember modifying the stories a little, especially when my son was younger. One version of Hanzel and Gretel has the stepmother wanting the woodcutter husband taking the kids out into the forest to abandon them, and even though he loves them, he does it! Twice! I don’t remember that part in the story version I got as a kid.)

@Greg

I’m thinking of old movies, black and white stuff sometimes, from a variety of genres, and if possible, some easy to understand and fun films, possibly dubbed, from outside the US. To my mind it’s too easy to get caught up in the conventions of the day as seeming the “right” way of things making it harder later on to adapt to other possibilities.

I’m totally with you here. The concern I have is that they might develop tastes that are so different from their peers that they might be an oddball. Actually, I don’t think that’s going to happen because they’ll get a dose of the popular stuff, too. My concern with exposing them to popular, modern stuff is that they won’t like the older, more obscure stuff. It’s a balancing act, I guess.

“would be to show them as much non-popular culture films while they were young in order to help them get at least some familiarity with wider conventions or options.”

Yeah, I do definitely agree with this too, which is why a showed my kids abstract animation and stuff from early on. On a somewhat related pointed, this is also part of why I’m a big believer in travelling with your kids, so they get to see other possibilities.

Oh, and Jazz, the other thing is that when you’re reading to your kids, consider the quality and variety of the language of what you’re reading to them as much as the story value . . . it will help them with comprehension and such later on.