Fincher, The Auteur
^ I agree with you about Se7en, but I also agree with Jazz that on these boards it probably needs a good defending.
My distaste for SEVEN notwithstanding, why is it a “neo-noir” when it’s a serial killer film? Aren’t those two different genres? The Game seems more like Fincher’s (failed) effort at neo-noir.
Many classic noirs were about serial killers. The two forms are not mutually-exclusive. And the serial killer film is just a sub-genre of the crime film.
Noir is not really a genre, so about-ness is not necessarily relevant, and “neo-noir” as a taxonomy is tossed about even more nebulously.
Bobby said, ‘Seven’ doesn’t need a defense. I consider it a masterpiece…
I want to say something here. “Defense” might have been a bad word choice on part—as it implies that someone must justify their taste in film or proove the greatness of the film or the film will be bad. Se7en doesn’t need that type of defense, but an explanation for its greatness from people who hold this view would be very nice. And, “I consider it a masterpiece…” doesn’t qualify (no offense, Bobby).
One of my biggest disappointments with this forum (and other movie forums) is the lack of civil and thoughtful discussion between people who love a specific film and those who hate it or don’t understand it. To me, the most interesting and fruitful discussions about specific films should occur in these situations. And it doesn’t happen enough, imo. (Btw, I believe Matt and I have such a conversation in the thread I linked—and I just wished it happened a lot more often.)
No, (classic) noir is not really a genre…but I believe neo-noir to be (we discussed it in the noir thread some time ago).
Why is ‘Seven’ great? Because the mood is so evocative and consistent. Because the evil dastardly-ness of Doe’s criminal plot becomes even more dastardly (and believable) when you realize someone actually wrote it as a screenplay. Because I adore Pitt’s line, ‘Naah. You’re a t-shirt. You’re a movie-of-the-week at best.’ Because it has one of the greatest endings I’ve ever seen in any film by any director.
“(Btw, I believe Matt and I have such a conversation in the thread I linked—and I just wished it happened a lot more often.)”
Hey, wait, would that make me the person who didn’t understand the film in that instance???
jk :)
I think Seven is fairly masterful in its manipulation of some of the conventions of that kind of film, but to me at least it’s more blatantly mechanical than even The Game.
Bobby said, Because it has one of the greatest endings I’ve ever seen in any film by any director.
I agree that the ending is really good.
Matt said, Hey, wait, would that make me the person who didn’t understand the film in that instance???
Well, since you’re bringing it up…;) Seriously, though, I enjoyed the discussion and I really wished that sort of thing happened more often.
I think Seven is fairly masterful in its manipulation of some of the conventions of that kind of film, but to me at least it’s more blatantly mechanical than even The Game.
You mean the filmmaking is mechanical or the content. I would strongly disagree with the latter, and I think the manipulation of genre conventions is extremely creative and masterful, imo. But that’s because I see it as an exstential film that wants to get viewers to examine their own lives.
Pitchiest black comedy in SE7EN:
INT. SAFE HOUSE — NIGHT: The room is like a hotel room. Mills stands beside the woman from the picture, MRS. GOULD. Mills shows her photos from the murder scene. The photos have been covered in sections to hide Mr. Gould’s corpse. Mrs. Gould is crying. Somerset is on the other side of the room, holding more photos.
MILLS: I’m sorry about this, Mrs. Gould. I really am.
MRS GOULD: I… I don’t understand.
Mills helps her flip through the photos. He isn’t too keen to put her through this.
MILLS: I need you to look at each one carefully…very carefully. Look for anything that seems strange or out of place. Anything at all.
MRS GOULD: I don’t know why… why now?
MILLS: Please, I need you to help me if we’re going to get who did this.
Mrs. Gould sobs quietly, wipes her tears.
MILLS: Anything… anything missing or different.
MRS GOULD: I don’t see anything.
MILLS: Are you absolutely certain?
MRS GOULD: I can’t do this now… please.
Mills looks to Somerset, looks at the photos Somerset holds.
MILLS: Maybe we better wait.
Somerset looks at the photos in his hand. These show Mr. Gould’s corpse in the chair, not covered in any way.
SOMERSET: It should be now. There may be something we’re not seeing.
MRS GOULD: Wait. Here…
MILLS: What is it?
Mrs. Gould points at the modern art painting on the wall in one photo. The painting is just splattered paint, abstract.
MRS GOULD: This painting…
MILLS: What?
MRS GOULD: Why is this painting hanging upside-down?
The extremely deadpan joke about a completely abstract painting being recognized as hung upside down by a pathetically whimpering, grieving wife overcome with emotion at the brutal murder of her husband is about as dark as it gets. The way Fincher directed Mrs. Gould (sorry, couldn’t find a clip) yields a performance about as graceful as Nordberg’s wife in THE NAKED GUN (begins at second 17):
It seems almost like the script was written as tragedy, yet directed by Fincher (at moments) as farce. But then again, I’m led to believe Walker was himself an incredibly embittered dude at the time of SE7EN’s screenwriting, working at a cash register at Tower Records, hating life (I’m reminded of Umberto Eco’s quote about motivation to write NAME OF THE ROSE: “I wanted to kill some monks”), and dreaming big dreams of Hollywood. I can certainly imagine Walker writing it as an inky black comedy and Fincher getting his hands on the script post-ALIEN 3 and thinking to himself, “YES, I GET THIS!” At the least, I’ll presume Fincher’s directorial presence bolsters the elements of cynical humor in the script: in this scene for example, the split second detail of the totally half-assed Post-It notes used to cover Gould’s body in the photos the cops present to Mrs. Gould. Either way, I don’t know how much time I’d want to spend hanging out with such black hearted dudes, but they sure made one hell of a dark comedy.
The image of the painting came from an interesting thread:
http://www.avforums.com/forums/movies-cinema/298261-se7en-painting.html
“You mean the filmmaking is mechanical or the content.”
Not really the content entire, but the plotting (which for me is the least important part of the film anyway).
^Case in point…why do the detectives need to question Mrs. Gould in such a terrible and distressed state? Because the story must progress, STAT! I think SE7En is sardonically aware of the generic conventions it’s working in, and those machinations are wisely crafted to be part of its pleasures.
@Ben
You’re saying Se7en is a black comedy, or there are good moments of black comedy?
@Matt
The plotting, huh? Hmm, I guess so, although I’d have to think about that. I think the plot is cleverly constructed, though.
I’d say it’s got a black comic heart. With many good moments of black comedy. But I don’t know if I’d corral it into any one classification. I laughed. It thrilled me. It grossed me out. It made me think about death a bunch.
edit: “Black comic heart”?…well, it’s certainly mischievous…especially at the audience’s expense.
edit edit: …at the audience’s and the characters’ expenses. Perhaps Fincher’s choice was to emphasize Doe’s skillful direction of events that unfold in the narrative through a visually expressed cynical worldview that permeates the entire film, even before Doe comes directly into the action onscreen to inform its tone, dialogue, and rhythms. Which, if it is the case, would to me express a very strong, cohesive, and admirable directorial vision.
“I think the plot is cleverly constructed, though.”
It’s deftly executed in the film itself, at least for the most part (and thanks for the example, Ben, that’s precisely the sort of thing I had in mind). I’m not sure whether to credit Fincher or Walker for that . . . I tend to credit Fincher more, probably because he’s delivered other successful films, while Walker’s other screenplays don’t seem to have been realized as successfully. (sorry—that’s a bit of a digression)
I don’t think there’s much comedy, black or otherwise, in ‘Seven’. It’s one of the darkest films I’ve ever seen. That’s another reason why I think it’s great neo-noir.
Seven is a comedy only in so far as the writing is comically awful. The rest of Andrew Kevin Walker’s screenplays speak for themselves. I concede that Fincher makes the most of the material….Incidentally, I caught the long trailer for The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo and I must admit my interest is piqued. It seems to capture the novel far better than the Swedish film.
@Bobby
It’s one of the darkest films I’ve ever seen.
Agreed—although my reasons for thinking this may not be shared by others.
@Ari
Seven is a comedy only in so far as the writing is comically awful.
Wow! I think the exact opposite. In fact, I feel like crediting the writing more for the film’s greatness than the direction. What don’t you like about the writing?
Yeah, I never could have imagined it as a comedy till someone mentioned that to me.
…And after that I could never watch it, or any Fincher for that matter, the same way again…
Dude’s just….devious….diabolical in his sense of humor. From the video for COLD HEARTED onward.
Fincher asked if he might ever direct a romantic comedy: “I sort of thought Fight Club was a romantic comedy [laughs] but albeit very homoerotic…”
“I tend to credit Fincher more, probably because he’s delivered other successful films, while Walker’s other screenplays don’t seem to have been realized as successfully. (sorry—that’s a bit of a digression)”
Probably, but look at the directors. Schumacher(8MM), Burton(Sleepy Hollow).
Having said that, S.Hollow’s script was bad and Burton made the most of it.
It’s kind of strange to me that Bobby thinks Seven is one of the darkest films he has ever seen. It’s more like Hollywood darkness to me.
It’s kind of strange to me that Bobby thinks Seven is one of the darkest films he has ever seen. It’s more like Hollywood darkness to me.
FWIW, I think it’s extremely dark,—or at least disturbing—especially if you consider John Doe’s critique of people and society in relationship to yourself. Realizing that one has become too comfortable with things that should disturb one’s self can be very unsettling—especially when the message comes from some an insane character.
^ Exactly! The studio tried to get them to change the ending, but Fincher (with Pitt’s clout) stood firm. There’s nothing in Hollywood’s comfort zone about Seven.
“The Fight Club multiple plot has gotten old but the Seven serial killer hasn’t?”
No, I don’t think so.
I mean, Fight Club just didn’t work for me. It’s been a couple years so I can’t talk specifics but I really went into the film with good intentions and wanting to like it. Up to that point, everything I’d seen from Fincher I had liked. But it just felt like a cheap exercise. But like I said, I need to see it again.
Seven felt fresh to me. Yes, it was playing off of the popularity of serial killers that The Silence of the Lambs had recently struck gold with. But Fincher tackled the genre in a different way (at least for the time) and since then it seemed to inspire tons of knockoffs. And the filmmaking style has almost become the defacto norm for the genre – look at the opening title sequence for the new show in FX “American Horror Story.” Now obviously Seven was piggy backing off of the style he and Romenek were doing in music videos at the time but for a feature length film, it felt different. Plus, the script was awesome. I mean, one has to admit the ending is pretty cool.
Bobby Wise
‘Seven’ doesn’t need a defense. I consider it a masterpiece and among the best of recent neo-noirs. Though it’s true that ‘Fight Club’ does feel a bit dated. Maybe because it caught the spirit of the times so well.