I did see the article in the NYTimes, and didn’t agree with the author. There’s a difference between being wordy and theatrical — and, as anyone who loves Bergmann knows, it’s often the visual images or the camera movement that stays with you most. A day or two after the article was published, if I remember correctly, there was another article on Bergmann (and Antonioni) that was more or less a rebuttal. The author claimed that there was a period (a flowering, if you will) when films were taken more seriously than they are today; they were an elitist art form demanding as much attention at times as serious literature. 81/2 is probably the most egregious example. Bergmann, Antonioni, and Fellini belonged to that tradition. We simply don’t look at movies with the same expectation - we ask that our entertainment be less serious, perhaps, or more coherent. I liked what he wrote since I grew up in that age- I was 19 or so when Personna was released — and I remember being blown away.
I saw Personna recently and was a bit bored frankly. I haven’t the same patience for experimentation or for a philosphical/psychological drama. I saw most of my Bergmann movies when I was much younger — and I adored them — and it’s clear to me that whether he succeeds in every film or not, he’s a genius. Do any of you remember Shame, and the closing shot of the raft among the sea of corpses? Or The Magician? No one seems to have mentioned it. I remember it as a remarkable investigation of the artist and his role. Think of the flagellants in The Seventh Seal or any of a series of close-ups from his later films. I saw the television series of Scenes from a Marriage — and I remember how we put aside everything just to see it. There’s a richness at times Shakespearean in his work. OK, it is literary — and it stems from a literary tradition — but so, for that matter, are practically all the open scenes of most Hitchcock movies.
I love all but maybe two of Bergman’s films but I also appreciate that everybody has different tastes and opinions. Also, I’m very dark, rather existentialist and Scandinavian—- so Bergman’s films and I get along just fine.
Two thumbs up for voicing your opinion Bottom Boy. What directors do you prefer to Bergman?
i would say overrated genius
overrated and genius are not mutually exclusive.
I love Bergman. I think he is one of the few true cinamatic genius’. To me Shame is the greatest film ever made. You should also watch the virging spring.
:O!! well it depends on the person watching, but i can never find a bergman fillm to be a bore. to me, the artistic beauty of each frame is too captivating to make me ever yawn.
Cries and whispers is utterly brilliant!!! He fully captured the essence of someone who’s dying.
I’ll admit that it took me a bit of time to fully appreciate The Seventh Seal.
Wild Strawberries was cute.
And so is he overrated? Naw, i don’t think so.
I think he’s a great filmmaker, and certainly an influential one (without him, Woody Allen would be permanently stuck in Fellini mode) . At the same time, I do believe that—along with Kurosawa—few other filmmakers works are accepted as masterpieces as uncritically as are Bergman (this was, I think, the point of Rosenbaum’s NY Times piece). How’s that for an equivocation?
“Cinema is about so many things, but one important thing among so many is entertainment, the essence of cinema in my opinion, which you won’t find in any of Bergman’s
What utter bullshit. I’m glad not all cinema is about “entertainment”, because that’s one of the things that really turns me off with old hollywood, too much happy lovey dovey happy ending stuff, dancing and singing (musicals are probably on my bottom list of things i like in cinema) Cinema is not meant JUST to entertain, it has so many other important roles which i think are far more important then simple entertainment, one of the reasons why i love Bergman so much and prefer him over the likes of Ford, Hawks….
^ I completely and utterly agree with this good soul.
Matt: Rosenbaum wasn’t just questioning the tendency to accept uncritically Bergman’s works as masterpieces; he really doesn’t have much enthusiasm for his work. In his own list of 1000 films, in Essential Cinema, you won’t find much Bergman. Just Sawdust and Tinsel, The Magician, Persona, and none in his top 100. I think Rosenbaum went too far, but Bergman’s reputation, along with Fellini and Kurosawa, among the (U.S) “holy trinity” of world cinema certainly needs questioning. Rosenbaum also picks only 3 by Tarkovsky- Andrei Rublev, Solaris, Stalker-, though that’s out of 7 features, and Stalker did make his 100.
It’s interesting that Bergman and Fellini films won quite a few (7 i think) of the “Foreign Language” Oscars, which have not been any better as a guide to true quality than the Best Picture awards. I would go so far as to say, none of the greatest directors ever won a Best Director Award and the true greats of world cinema have been notably neglected by the Academy. Sadly the Oscars carry a lot of clout.
His achievements are indeed remarkable – more than 50 films, over 120 major theatre productions, the radio plays, the TV dramas and the books. In sheer volume and consistent quality, it is hard to think of anyone who matches him.
Genius.
Genius, though there were some boring things I believe were overrated, PERSONA!
One of the few geniuses of Cinema, all of his movies can be defended as part of film canon if looked at with great patience, attention to detail, and sufficient research into his films—read and then watch is my advice!
Genius? Oh my yes, on occasion, in films like THE SEVENTH SEAL, SMILES OF A SUMMER NIGHT, THE MAGICIAN, FANNY AND ALEXANDER, and the good parts of PERSONA.
Over-rated bore? Oh my yes, on occasion, in films like CRIES AND WHISPERS and the really painfully bad parts of PERSONA.
I have never actually been bored by Bergman. I find him to be a genius, and probably the most insightful and humane of all filmmaker’s, with the exception of maybe Kieslowski. I have been bored by Godard though, more than a few times. Bottomboy give Fanny and Alexander a shot, it’s long as hell but it is fascinating and without pretension.
J.Rollins,if you think Persona is overrated (????) try out watching the worst of Bergman which are his tv movies.
Saraband is such a dragging misconception that everyone who hates films like Cries and Whispers or Summer Interlude(i mean..who can hate films like these?),should need to fix his mind and watch the tv films he made as his swan song…
Bit of a bore but more genius than bore.
Wanna know how to photograph a close up? Take a lesson from Bergman. He had serious technical chops and actors would give him a performance worthy of them.
Any director can spin off a few clunkers and Bergman surely did — thing is that we probably wouldn’t agree on which were except for “The Serpent’s Egg”… and he didn’t even use CGI.
Certainly genius, but, Bottomboy, since you admit to impatience with films with “deeper meanings”, then maybe you should save Bergman for another time in your life, because those meanings are certainly what Bergman was about.
I’ll fully admit that Bergman’s films resonate with me now far more than they did when I was younger. Years ago, they made me restless, so I completely understand your reaction to them, but now I find them among the most brilliant films I’ve ever experienced.
Re-visit Bergman some other time, and if he still is not to your liking, the world will keep turning. Thanks for starting this thread, by the way. It’s always worthwhile to take a fresh look at an icon and ask those sorts of questions.
It’s strange, if I read the back of a Bergman DVD more often than not the film will sound boring, dull or sparsely drawn. However, once I start watching I find I get hooked, time passes very quickly and I’ll reach the end much sooner than I’d hope. He’s a genius not only for the kind of slow, moving introspection that really explored some very important issues (the absence of God and the nature of humiliation, to name two) but for being able to imbue these explorations with entertainment value. I agree with the fellow above who says that you should be entertained by film, of course, but I have to disagree with the rest of his statement and emphasize that Bergman is entertaining. Just not in a frantic, explosions-everywhere kind of way.
What a stupid topic. Bergman was a genius, there’s no doubt about it.
:D
I think he was pretty brilliant, indisputably, but I do often wonder about people who make films as often as he did in the 60’s (his productive peak). It’s not like they’re all masterpieces. But what can one say? You get the right team together, and magic just keeps happening. Not masterpieces, but I’d rather watch a brilliant mind spilled out on celluloid than not :) And hell, most of them are pretty impressive..
Bluesoul:
“…I’m glad not all cinema is about “entertainment”, because that’s one of the things that really turns me off with old hollywood, too much happy lovey dovey happy ending stuff, dancing and singing (musicals are probably on my bottom list of things i like in cinema) Cinema is not meant JUST to entertain, it has so many other important roles which i think are far more important then simple entertainment…”
I think this is why The Maltese Falcon is so important.
I consider Stanley Kubrick to be an overrated filmmaker, but certainly not Ingmar Bergman.
Some of his films are overrated though and some pretty underrated.
OVERRATED:
The Seventh Seal
Wild Strawberries
Autumn Sonata(Which I consider to be pretty weak)
Cries and Whispers
UNDERRATED:
Through a Glass Darkly
The Silence
Hour of the Wolf
Crisis
A Lesson in Love
To Joy
Summer with Monika
Scenes of a Marriage
After the Rehearsal
BAD FILMS OF HIS:
The Magician
Shame
The Rite
Port of Call
Please shut the hell up.
Moderated
bernard
Truly a master. But not for everyone. Check out the Mondo Movie podcast. They’re primarily a horror podcast but did a couple of fan appreciation episodes on Bergman that were really insightful and kinda designed to win horror fans over to the Bergman side. If I remember correctly they went from Episode63 to 66.
http://www.mondomovie.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=17&Itemid=26