Is Fred Astaire a Great Artist?

I just watched The Band Wagon, and I was reminded me of the greatness of Mr. Astaire. For me, it happened in the dance sequence in the park. Individually his dancing is really good, but when he does those paired routines, it’s just beautiful—to the point of being moving and even sublime. Anyway, do people think of Astaire as a great artist? I think this is an interesting question, particuarly within the context of discussions on whether entertainment—as in Hollywood movies—can be great art.

Also, Astaire’s dancing presents a potential challenge to the notion that great art must be realistic or reveal some profound truth about the human condition. The sequences are not realistic, nor do they occur in realistic films and, to my knowledge, the dancing doesn’t reveal any deep truths (not that I can identify, anyway). But the dancing is extremely beautiful and moving to me—and, on that basis, I’d call Astaire a great artist.

He is certainly a great artist. He cultivated a memorable image and career for many decades and meant something profound to a great number of people.

Yes, as is Gene Kelly.

I like Gene just a bit better

Martha Graham blows everyone out of the water tho.

Same here. Gene’s one of my all time cinema heroes.

I think, by the way, that Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee are great artists of the same sort. Physical creation of something awe inspiring.

Hell yes. Astaire is a great artist and “entertainment—as in Hollywood movies—can be great art.”

Sammo Hung, Chaplin also had great body pressence, Tati. I could be generous and say Benigni is physically skilled as well.

Also, Jean-Claude Van Damme (hides).

Astaire and Roger’s “Never Gonna Dance” sequence in Swing Time is one of my favorites ever.

haha. i like fred a little better than gene. it’s like gene was always trying too hard. fred never looked like he was trying.

Not anymore.

I have not seen it yet, but he has now been crystalised into history in a time capsule alongside with the oldest cave paintings in the world. For some reason, Herzog has decided to include a clip of him dancing with his shadows from Swing Times in his 3D documentary Cave of Forgotten Dreams.

Also, Jean-Claude Van Damme

Ummm…no….

Here’s The Very Best of Fred Astaire, list with most of the best dance clips, a few not on youtube

Fred Astaire is one of the greatest artists of the 20th century and his dances should be standard in any time capsules to show human achievemnet to aliens and future generations.

The Band Wagon has the magnificent Girl Hunt Mystery in Jazz sequence, it’s rather like a Singin in the Rain set in the world of theatre not films, again with superb sets and choreography. In SITR Cyd Charisse vamps it up in green, in TBW in red. The Dancing in the Dark sequence is the most elegant on screen. Modern musicals have come nowhere near such class, and they’ve not had anyone in Astaire’s league either. To think Chicago won Oscar but those great Astaire films didn’t! Fred’s sequences are shown in full without gimmicky cutting, and showing the whole body. He made it look so easy but he worked and worked, a perfectionist

Great artist? More like a great dancer. He doesn’t fucking paint!

Without question he is a great artist. From what I have read, George Balanchine thought so. As does Baryshnikov.

Of course he is :)

presents a potential challenge to the notion that great art must be realistic

I actually don’t think this is a common belief.

Not to take anything away from Astaire, who is indeed great, or Kelly who’s also fantastic, but thanks to the racism of the day we were almost denied the chance of seeing two dancers every bit as good, the Nicolas Brothers. As it is, they didn’t receive the treatment or attention they should have, and we only have a few isolated numbers to remember them by. That is a crime.

For anyone unfortunate enough not to have seen the brothers in action yet, allow me to rectify that right now.

bravo!

I think Gene Kelly at least was pretty open about his debt to the Nicholas Brothers and their dancing virtuosity which is one of the reasons I love Kelly. He was also a bit of an experimentalist with that film he did without dialogue and only dancing, Invitation to the Dance

Yes, Fred Astaire was an artist and don’t forget Ginger Rogers who did everything Astaire did “backwards and in heels”

Oh yes, Kelly certainly was as he performed with them in one of my favorite musicals, The Pirate. As often seems to be the case, other artists recognized their abilities but what was perceived as the attitude of the day was allowed to rule, and was in that way reinforced, by the studios in charge.

Beyond that, many of the early musicals are damaged by racist attitudes whether deliberate or simply through unquestioned adoption of convention. Blackface routines are far too prevalent and making watching many otherwise fine films a challenge. I will note however that the use of blackface wasn’t without some nuance, and shouldn’t always be thought of as holding exactly the same sets of meaning even if it is inherently racist on its face, so to speak. Some films, such as Allan Dwan’s Stephen Foster biopic, I Dream of Jeannie, goes out of its way to show Foster giving credit for his success to the black community where he learned his music and also shows him as being quite affectionate for members of that community as a sort of way of seeming to mitigate the blackface routines. The relationship is a complicated one, as it is in some of the films that actually do feature black performers like Cabin in the Sky or Stormy Weather, not to mention the many that would simply allow them supporting parts. But all of this is probably better left for another thread since I don’t want to take away from the Frank appreciation.

Allow me to add that I think the premise presented in the original post does fail to do justice to the variety of ways “art” can come into being, and that one shouldn’t dismiss the idea of dance being able to deliver profound truth or deeper meaning.

there is in fact a blackface routine in swing time, i believe fred’s only one. it was meant as a tribute to bill ‘bojangles’ robinson. well, judge for yourself. i admit i was shocked the first time i saw it.

Yes, that is exactly what I was trying to get at, but I couldn’t remember which film this was in off hand.

And he sang too!

aww i love that one :D

i actually have an album of fred & ginger at rko

i know i’m a nerd :p

Blackface is an unfortunate product of an era; many at the time did it, even Buster Keaton; one of the greatest film artists of all time Al Jolson did it in almost every film.

Yeah, the breaking glass thing is fabulous. He’s dancing beautifully, expressing sadness in his singing, and frustration with the smashing glasses, perfect expression of the mixture of emotions in such a situation!

@Kate

Jazz: presents a potential challenge to the notion that great art must be realistic

Kate: I actually don’t think this is a common belief

Maybe not outside out of Mubi, but just stick around and you’ll see what I mean.

Ummm…no….

Ummm… yes. As a physical performer, he’s easily up there with the others mentioned. He just happens to be in shittier films.

The Bojangles routine was in Swing Time and there is still a difference between a genuinely admiring tribute and monstrous black and white minstrels caricature faces that were still on TV in the 70s!

What Fred did was to give a sense of time almost being slowed, and that is a rare thing. Solo and with partners. Take the Puttin on the Ritz, Dancing in the Dark, Let’s Face the Music and Dance routines for instance. It changes our perception of human capability while also being poetic, for me verging on the sublime. You may see it occasionally with some sportsmen, a truly beautiful moment of mastery- in cricket i can picture Majid Khan playing a couple of shots that are exquisite in their effortless timing, send ripples through me, an aesthetic thrill.