Jazz, I think that I meant exactly what you’re saying when I said new. The thing is that while that swinging or grooving quality might be found in many other types of music, that unpredictability you mentioned isn’t there for me with most mainstream popular music, at least not on record. When I listen to classic rock and roll, which I don’t really do much these days, it sounds very predictable on record, with the exceptions usually being groups that almost have a jazz tinge like, say, The Allman Brothers (then again that’s based on the live Fillmore record so I guess it doesn’t count. Even a band like The Stones or Led Zeppelin doesn’t have the sense of unpredictability that recorded jazz does, for me. There seems to be a droning quality, an urge to get to the end and not take time to explore the possibilities outside the melody and rhythm in the majority of rock, again for me, that doesn’t interest me. And again, I’m talking about basic classic rock here.
Rollins tone seems to me to be fuller and more powerful than Tranes but they were doing different things so I definitely don’t hold that against Trane in the slightest. It would have been awesome if someone had taped those legendary phone exchanges between the two of them.
Yes to Jim Hall! I confess I resisted paying much attention to jazz guitarists for a long time, preferring the piano as part of a rhythm section. I then tried Wes Montgomery but I still don’t have a handle on him yet. Grant Green actually opened it up for me. Idle Moments is a great track of course but his Feeling the Spirit album is fast becoming one of my all time favorites. Hall is great on The Bridge. I just picked up his solo Concierto. I know you said you prefer him as a sideman but that album is awesome! It features Desmond, who is great as usual and Chet Baker who almost steals the show. There’s also some beautiful piano work by a guy named Roland Hanna who I am not familiar with. The centerpiece is the Concierto de Aranjuez which I though Miles owned but it turns out he just borrowed it.
I completely agree about Miles, and Monk. There is no need for them to be Clifford or Bud. They did there own thing and I wouldn’t want it any other way.
Hey, also, have you delved much into the european guys? Heard anything by a swedish trombonist named Eje Thelin?
Jazz, I think that I meant exactly what you’re saying when I said new.
You mean, all the qualities I mentioned? OK.
The thing is that while that swinging or grooving quality might be found in many other types of music, that unpredictability you mentioned isn’t there for me with most mainstream popular music, at least not on record.
Yeah, and I would guess this is because improvisation isn’t a prominent feature of the music. Also, it depends on the interest level in soloing. Solos are really short in many other American musical forms.
Rollins tone seems to me to be fuller and more powerful than Tranes but they were doing different things so I definitely don’t hold that against Trane in the slightest.
Yes to Jim Hall! I confess I resisted paying much attention to jazz guitarists for a long time, preferring the piano as part of a rhythm section.
Have you heard the Joe Henderson tribute to Miles? John Scofield is on that, and I really like his playing. (Actually, the entire rhythm section sounds great—I think either Charlie Haden or Dave Holland is on bass and Al Foster is on drums. Foster is great on this, too.)
I just picked up his solo Concierto
Ah, I’ve been meaning to check that one out.
I don’t know, it depends on what you mean by powerful. Rollins has a beefier tone—maybe he’s like a heavyweight boxer. Trane’s sound was more searing and intense—maybe like a guy with a flaming sword.
It would have been awesome if someone had taped those legendary phone exchanges between the two of them.
Hmm, I never heard of that. (Aren’t there a couple of recordings where they play together?)
Not a whole lot. I really like Lars Moller (tenor saxophone) and Tord Gustavsen (piano; actually, I think someone from mubi turned me on to him). There’s probably some others that I really like, but those are the first two that came to mind.
Just getting into Joe Henderson as a leader. I will have to check the Mile tribute out.
Your analogy for Trane seems pretty spot on to my ears. Searing is the word.
The legend has it that Rollins and Trane would call each other and not say a word. One would play a few phrases and hang up. A short while later the other would call and respond, only with music. If its true it sounds like one of the most beautiful instances of artistic exchange ever.
Check out Hall’s Concierto!
Concierto has been on my list for a while, so hopefully I’ll find a used copy somewhere.
Cool story about Rollins and Trane.
Jazz, they’re all great on Footprints, it’s Shorter’s composition though.
was thinking Eddie Gomez with Bill Evans trio (was Evans who introduced Miles to modal playing)
bit of a caprice.. anyone like Alex North’s film scores?
Oh, I thought you were talking two different performances of “Footpints”—one from Miles Smiles and the other from one of Shorter’s bluenote albums (can’t remember the title right now).
I have that live Evans album at Montreux. (w/Gomez and DeJohnette). Nice album.
was Evans who introduced Miles to modal playing
Was it? I thought it was George Russell.
What films have North scored?
the Shorter line up has Joe Chambers? Have a few Shorter albums.
Gomez did a good job of replacing Lafaro.
Evans learned from Russell. Am listening to some Jean Luc Ponty tonight
the Shorter line up has Joe Chambers?
I think so. I think it’s off of Adam’s Apple, but I’m not entirely sure.
Have a few Shorter albums.
That should be remedied. ;) I love Shotter—both his playing and his composing. I’ve recently got into his post post 70s albums.
Gomez did a good job of replacing Lafaro.
Yeah. Evans really did like his bassists. If you were a bassist who liked to solo/play melodically, Evans was a good guy to play with. Marc Johnson is also fantastic. (I wonder if Dave Holland ever played with Evans. That would be a great match-up, in my opinion.)
Am listening to some Jean Luc Ponty tonight
I haven’t really listened to him very much. (Maybe with Zappa.) I like Grappelli, but I’m generally not keen on violin within the jazz context.
The band is cooking^, but Hall’s comping isn’t mic’ed very well. :(
Wow, really? I was so dazzled by the technique I didn’t even notice. I will watch again.
Oh, and here’s something else that’ll sound a bit dumb. Hall is using a pick, right? How many jazz guitarists, if any, didn’t use a pick? I ask because Wes Montgomery finally hit me today like a ton of bricks.
Maybe it was my computer, but when Rollins takes a solo in the beginning, I could barely hear Hall and Cranshaw(?), the bassist.
Hall is using a pick, right? How many jazz guitarists, if any, didn’t use a pick?
To my, knowledge, not many. (Wes is the only that comes to mind.)
I ask because Wes Montgomery finally hit me today like a ton of bricks.
What did it for you? To be honest, I never really got Wes when I first heard him. His sound, using his thumb, didn’t grab me at first. Also, I don’t I appreciated his ability to craft a melody. Plus, the stuff I heard him on, he didn’t seem like a great rhythm player. I responded to Grant Green, more for example, or Pat Metheny (although I don’t really care for Metheny as an accompanist).
I don’t know. I picked up his album Full House and the tone, the “fat” sound of the notes just really got to me. It doesn’t just sound like guitar to me. I know my aversion to the guitar is strange and I’m getting over it. It probably has something to do with rock being so prevalent in my life and the world. Like I said, Green appealed to me more at first as well and I still need to check out more of his stuff.
I think the melody thing was a problem for me as well. The first Wes i bought was Smokin’ at the Half Note and it sounded more like pure blues to me the first couple of times I heard it. Nothing wrong with blues but I was looking for jazz, whatever that means. I listened to it again today and it sounded beautiful. He really seems to dig into the grooves of the rhythm if that makes sense and there are all these little details in the solos that he doesn’t linger on but a they stay with you until the next dazzling bit.
What’s the best Metheny for you? I have nothing by him. Also, i’m sure his name came up before but 35 pages is a lot, what about John McLaughlin?
I picked up his album Full House…
Haha, that was the album that got me, too. I liked Griffin, too. The music is swinging on that, too.
I know my aversion to the guitar is strange…
Nah, not really. Everybody has their preferences. I really don’t like the sound of the flute (with a few exceptions), for example.
What’s the best Metheny for you? I have nothing by him.
I’m not sure you would like him, since his music incorporates pop, electric instruments. But for his more straight-ahead stuff, check out the album Question and Answer. It’s a trio recording with Dave Holland and Roy Haynes. This might have been the first recording of Haynes I heard. He’s killing on this. (I don’t have the update version of this, but Holland might be more upfront. He’s one of my favorite bassists, for what it’s worth.) You might also like Bright Sized Life and trio with Jaco Pastorius and Bob Moses. (If you’re open to jazz that incorporate pop/rock and Brazilian, I’ll give you some recommendations.)
I will say that Metheny’s style is very bop-based and his sound is more in the traditional, hollow-body sound—so I’m guessing that will appeal to you. (He’s influenced by Jim Hall and Wes.) However, he does play synth-guitar at times, but not on those albums above, if I recall correctly; the synth-guitar has a screaming banshee quality; I like it). Question and Answer is more boppish, while Bright Size Life seems to be expanding the jazz language—maybe incorporating a more folk, country, pop feel, but in a subtle way. It’s all acoustic (although Jaco is playing electric bass I believe), and I think it falls easily within the jazz category. (Ironically, this is Metheny’s first album as a leader, if I’m not mistaken, but I think it’s one of his most successfully innovative recordings.)
Also, i’m sure his name came up before but 35 pages is a lot, what about John McLaughlin?
From what I’ve heard, I’m not a big fan—including his playing with Miles. I like guitarists that blend rock and jazz, and I don’t mind his chops, but his music sort of leaves me cold. He’s fast, but I’m not really moved. (This kind of reminds me of my feelings towards Oscar Peterson.)
Oh, I really do like one album by him, though—Extrapolation. But I like the overall group playing and the compositions on this. He seems to play in a differently (not as bombastically?) on this, though.
(Edit: I’m not sure Metheny will be your bag. I like his sound, but I think his biggest strength is his composing—particularly his melodies. But I have a feeling you’re not going to be too into that. But check out some sound clips of Q&A.)