Kanye West Video "Power" Directed by Marco Brambilla

Oooh, can we turn this thread into all the great hip hop that West is not?

The only current great rap act is Outkast. Most of the rest are either just good at picking samples to rap semi-competently over, or they’re shock value merchants who raise their sales by rattling off expletives, pretending to be gangsters and/or creating fake controversy.

He tries harder than most. I give him credit for that.

I like his music.

By any chance have any of you been to his website? Quite a strange place that is…

“I’d rather defend Jay-Z than Kanye, so we can move the conversation there. Jay simplistic and one-dimensional? I don’t think your ears are working. Because Jay-Z is arguably the greatest rapper of all-time. Listen to him go toe to toe with Biggie on “Brookyln’s Finest” and then call him simplistic. The Chance Gardener of rap?? Come on.”

He is just boring to me. I don’t like guys that rap about hustling all the time. it’s a simplistic metaphor for life. And when Jay isn’t rapping about hustling, he is rapping about his money, or something else i have no interest in. Money for me is a means to an end, not an end in itself. I always saw him as an image rapper personally, and since i don’t admire his image, he doesn’t impress me. He is one of the original swag kings though, but i only like swag rappers that don’t take themselves seriously, like Cam’ron! haaha. And i liked him for about 15 minutes back in 2004.

I don’t consider Jay all that lyrical either. i’m a snob and expert rappers to use a much wider vocabulary in order to deserve that title. Tha’ts why my favourite mc’s are guys like P.Monch, Kool Keith(old keith mostly), Chino XL etc etc.

as for pac and biggie, 2pac was also too simple for me, and i never liked his arrogant persona anyway, but Biggie was a monster. one of the all time greats.

“How do you know very few rappers are articulate or interesting? If you want to accept the stereotype just know that you’re one of those responsible for perpetuating it. Which means you’re part of the problem.”

i’ve read and seen enough interviews with rappers to have an idea. they rarely ever mention anything non-cliched and predictable. truth be told, they are the most boring interviews to read in music, unless there is beef involved, and even then it’s just childish nonsense. Secondly, even if they are hiding their intelligence and outside interests, that in itself is a problem and reveals something negative about the genre from my point of view.

I don’t need to perpetuate stereotypes Bobby. msot of these guys can take all the credit for that. they do it all on their own. every time they speak. The intelligent rappers, what’s left of them, do not have anywhere near the same exposure as the retards, and most of the smart and interesting guys that do have a profile of sorts—like Q-Tip, The Roots etc—are from the 90’s anyway, and again, just aren’t as popular as the retards.

Questlove from the Roots is a really friendly guy too. i met him years ago when Roots were in Aus.

It’s not the intelligent rappers’ fault that they don’t have as much exposure as the gangsters (and do you really want to try to argue that Pac and Jay aren’t intelligent?). Part of the blame lies with the multi-national conglomerates pulling the strings, but that’s another story. So just because gangster rappers are out there in the spotlight, and even though you also say there are a number of intelligent rappers, no need to feed into the stereotype that most all rappers are uninteresting idiots.

Yes beef is childish. And the fact that people hide their intelligence is indicative of a problem that’s much “bigger than hip-hop” as Dead Prez would say. Does it reveal something negative about the genre, or the societal context that the genre survives in? Does rap cause the problems or reflect them (or maybe recycle them poisonously)?

A wider vocab doesn’t mean much in the long run. That’s as superficial as the accusations you make of rappers being one-dimensional. Are Kool Keith and Chino giving you lessons for surviving the game and unmasking falsities, or just tittilating you with their fancy words and wordplay?

2 Pac too simple? He was a well-rounded artist of the highest order. Look closer. And not just at rap. At the acting and the poetry too. Then REALLY listen to the song “Blasphemy,” understand his life and where he was coming from, and tell me he’s simplistic after that.

Asshole

“Yes beef is childish. And the fact that people hide their intelligence is indicative of a problem that’s much “bigger than hip-hop” as Dead Prez would say. Does it reveal something negative about the genre, or the societal context that the genre survives in? Does rap cause the problems or reflect them (or maybe recycle them poisonously)?”

These are all interesting questions that i really have no time to go into. I’ve always wondered how much rap causes or reflects problems in society and i’m certainly not of the mindset that rap is innocent or cancerous. What i do think is interesting though is that rap, moreso than rock, is very anti-intellectual. I mean, shit, smart rap is called nerd rap, that says it all. I don’t hear rock fans talk about ‘nerd rock’, or metal fans about ‘nerd metal’, and if they do it’s usually in an ironic sense.

Do you like LIttle Brother? Thier album ‘The Minstrel Show’ definitely has a few things to say about why intelligent rappers are shunned in the game.

“A wider vocab doesn’t mean much in the long run. That’s as superficial as the accusations you make of rappers being one-dimensional. Are Kool Keith and Chino giving you lessons for surviving the game and unmasking falsities, or just tittilating you with their fancy words and wordplay?”

Kool Keith is more of a surrealist. He is very much responsible for breaking the A-B rhyme structure in the ultramag days, and kicking off the new underground movement with Dr.Octagon. As for unmasking falsities, he was one of the first to rap about how fake the industry was back in the old days. He just did it in a hilariously offbeat and scatological way. I guess it depends how ‘seriously’ you take him, but he was definitely one of the first rappers to be on that whole ‘you drive a rental’ thing. Chino is mostly an egotist, but he is great at it. I’ve always thought Eminem stole ideas off him. Do i learn anything from him? nah, but i don’t learn anything from rappers in general. at least with Chino i can marvel at his wordplay. He is probably the only rapper in Mensa too ;-) not that it means anything for his skill as a rapper of course, but it’s an interesting quirk.

I’ll give 2pac another listen. i honestly haven’t bothered with him since the late 90’s/early 00’s. last time i even thought about him seriously was around the time that Broomfield documentary was released.

Overall i tend to prefer the eccentrics in rap. e.g chino, monch, Redman, R.A, C Rayz Walz, Busdriver, E-40(he may be west coast and associated with ‘gangsters’, but he is definitely an odd dude), Cee-Lo, Del, Mf Doom. of course i like some conscious guys, and a handful of ‘thug’ rappers, but i generally gravitate towards the oddballs.

And yeah, there is obviously more to wordplay that just big words otherwise Canibus would be the greatest of all time ;-)

This video was great! Dug it! They released a pretty good remix of this song today with Jay-Z as well

And I bet when Prince first came out, they were saying “He’s nowhere near Hendrix’ level, Prince is an arrogant bastard!” I’m just sayin

Glad you mentioned E-40. He’s incredibly underrated. Not only that, one of the most important artists in the history of California (and independent) hip-hop music.

-And I bet when Prince first came out, they were saying “He’s nowhere near Hendrix’ level, Prince is an arrogant bastard!” I’m just sayin-

There were, but also, Ryan, here’s Robert Christgau in the Village Voice (reviewing Dirty Mind in 1980, only a couple of years after Prince’s debut): “thus he becomes the first commercially viable artist in a decade to claim the visionary high ground of Lennon and Dylan and Hendrix (and Jim Morrison), whose rebel turf has been ceded to such marginal heroes-by-fiat as Patti Smith and John Rotten-Lydon.”

Matt, I agree there. I like Prince. Kanye’s first few albums were all critically praised as well with many reviews getting a perfect score. Some have even called him the voice of a new generation.

All I was pointing out is that, these types of things go in circles. A new artist comes along and makes a splash and many people will say “he’s not as good as so-and-so” and then 20 years later, they say the same thing about the new artist. In another decade or so, there will be some new rapper/producer or artist coming out onto the scene and people will be saying “This guy isn’t nearly as good as Kanye West!”

^^There is a big difference between making a splash within your scene though, and making waves culturally. ti’s difficult for any new artist to have the same cultural impact as bands like Beatles, Doors, Stones etc, and it’s not just romanticism either. ti’s the fact that these artists not only broke new band and influenced generations of musicians, but they were also some of the first of their kind. plus the world was a different place back then. now consensus is difficult to achieve when it comes to music, and in this era of illegal downloading, no artist will probably ever make that kind of impact again. at least not for a while anyway.

I agree Joks, I honestly don’t think another band will ever come close to doing what the Beatles did. They were in the right place at the absolute right time with the right songs and talent. With music sales plummeting, I don’t know if they’ll ever go back up. Music as a whole has been pushed into the background, it’s not really a form of entertainment in itself, it’s just background noise for folks driving to work or working out. And it’s kind of sad.

That being said, I do believe Kanye has made a cultural impact (whether some people on here want to admit it or not). Of course, not on the scale of the Beatles but about as much as can be possibly done these days.

Yeah, it’s all true—this is the way pop culture discourse works—after the first wave everyone is always the next someone, and then, eventually, if they’re good enough for long enough, someone becomes the next them.

“I agree Joks, I honestly don’t think another band will ever come close to doing what the Beatles did. They were in the right place at the absolute right time with the right songs and talent. With music sales plummeting, I don’t know if they’ll ever go back up. Music as a whole has been pushed into the background, it’s not really a form of entertainment in itself, it’s just background noise for folks driving to work or working out. And it’s kind of sad.”

yeah, people have too many options these days! Film is going that way too!! Both these mediums are becoming far less important in people’s lives, but music is in a far worse state. It’s quite pathetic actually. Even the indie labels can’t afford to take any risks on new artists anymore.

“That being said, I do believe Kanye has made a cultural impact (whether some people on here want to admit it or not). Of course, not on the scale of the Beatles but about as much as can be possibly done these days.”

well kayne has certainly done a good job at keeping his name out there. he made a name for himself as a producer in the early 00’s, and is now about to release his 5th record as a solo artist. His production style was very influencial for a while there—most of the soul influenced production of the mid 00’s were basically cheap knock offs of the stuff he did on Roc—but whether he will influence as a solo artist, rather than as just a producer, is open to debate. we’ll have to wait and see. Having said that, Kayne did discover Lupe Fiasco though, so he is obviously doing something right ;-)

“Yeah, it’s all true—this is the way pop culture discourse works—after the first wave everyone is always the next someone, and then, eventually, if they’re good enough for long enough, someone becomes the next them.”

yeah, but i can’t see another elvis or micheal jackson coming along anytime soon ;-)

Prince is overrated by some, but Kanye is just flat out garbage.

Elvis and Michael Jackson are not much different than Kanye West or Lady Gaga.

They were musical talents, not necessarily geniuses, but they had an image, the captured lightning in a bottle and became Iconic and were able to stretch that out and have staying power for 15-20 years or more. You could compare Madonna to them.

Now don’t get me wrong. Elvis was an amazing singer-especially gospel. MJ was an amazing dancer and a good singer with a very unique voice and approach. Elvis wrote less than 1% of his recording catalogue, and MJ wrote less than 10%. They were studio creations, they were brands packaged and sold to the masses based on the talent, recognizability, and good looks of the singers-who were good singers, but not geniuses.

It is harder to recreate this today for a few reasons:

1. We have a 24 hour news/media/entertainment cycle today and people ‘get old’ quicker.

2. The world has become bigger, as there are not just a handful of artists pushed by a handful of labels, but a million all promoting themselves on the internet in various ways.

3. The death of the music industry model as it had been for nearly a century and the death of real music television and video play means that less artists will become known on a global scale.

4. The artists who are chosen to be global icons are chosen specifically for certain reasons to take advantage of the flavor of the month, through straw polls just like a political candidate picking his platform and choosing his hot button words. Elvis and the Jackson 5 were singers, before they became a product. Nowadays, they create the product before they find the singers.

dp

“2. The world has become bigger, as there are not just a handful of artists pushed by a handful of labels, but a million all promoting themselves on the internet in various ways.”

yes plus the fact that so many indie labels have popped up over the last 15-20 years. The music market has been sliced and diced into 300 mutually exclusive categories with a slight degree of overlap. it’s almost impossible to keep up with the new sub-genres being created nowadays. most of the time they are really nothing new though, just old crap recycled.

“Elvis and the Jackson 5 were singers, before they became a product. Nowadays, they create the product before they find the singers.”

agree.

This thread is all sorts of silly. Hova is boring? Tupac is too simple? Wait, whuuuuuuuut? Crazy talk. Unless you’re talking about the Jay-Z of now and saying specifically that Tupac’s beats are too simple. In which case, I guess I can see that.

Jay Z is boring because he only talks about himself and what he has and what he can do, etc.

The guy is the worst. The source crowned him after Pac and Big died, and people bought it hook, line, and sinker.

He is good at selling himself to the masses, though.

That’s not true. You’re not listening closely enough to Jay’s body of work. Either that, or you’re only paying attention to his commercial singles.

The Jackson 5 were always product.

Ahh, how quickly they forget… How unappreciative they are… We definitely live in a postmodern world. People truly and honestly can’t tell the difference between the real thing and a fake.

Rap is a joke

I seriously wish people would stop harping about that Taylor Swift thing… That was like what a year ago or two already? She’s a crappy singer anyway. Her songs are annoying as hell, and people who like them are annoying as hell…And people act like that award was just SOOOO important. Unfortunately she’ll probably get many more so don’t sweat it.
And even if you are still sore about the T Swift thing, that doesn’t interfere with the fact that West is a great lyricist and beat maker. Probably the best one you could hear on the radio today.

@ Matt ParksThe Jackson 5 were always product.

Yes they were, but they were also a family band, which was not a new phenomenon. While Joe Jackson packaged and sold them, he was limited to his own children as his talent pool, which is a lot different from the way that boy bands and girl bands today are constructed.

@Hidden,
The Taylor Swift thing is just another indicator of Kanye’s arrongance, which is even more annoying when one realizes that he’s not even talented enough to forgive him of his arrogance.

He is a decent beat maker, but as a lyricist he just needs to quit.