how can you justify taking a guy who went twice and only won once versus a guy with a perfect record in the big game?
Two responses: 1) performance; 2) the numbers don’t capture everything. Was Eli’s performance in the first Superbowl exceptional? I would argue no. The pass and catch is the luckiest play ever, imo. Ashante Samuel drops a ball that lands almost perfectly in his hands.
I would feel highly comfortable taking one of Eli’s Super Bowl Giants teams into battle versus Peyton’s Super Bowl Colts team.
Right—but do you feel that way because you think Eli is better than Manning? I don’t.
…someway, Eli wins you the game with his arm in the clutch.
Until this past season, I wasn’t so confident saying that.
My point is that it isn’t about numbers. Eli can play shitty the whole game and win it for you when it counts. Peyton can play lights out the whole game and have that fatal mistake at the end. Was Eli’s play lucky? I’d believe that, maybe, if he didn’t have two rings on his fingers.
Do I feel the way I do because I think Eli is better than Peyton? In the big game, when it counts, yes. We can say Peyton is the wizard of play-calling, the better arm, the purer passer, and all that good stuff. But what is it worth if it doesn’t translate into championships? In this day and age, you gotta win multiple championships to be consequential. One doesn’t impress me so much. A lot of people have one. 2 rings is the new 1, just like a billion dollars is the new million.
Look at Favre. He has all the records in the world, plus a ring. Does anyone really and honestly consider him in the conversation of the greatest QB of all-time? Maybe top 10, but probably not top 5.
Eli can play shitty the whole game and win it for you when it counts. Peyton can play lights out the whole game and have that fatal mistake at the end.
There’s some truth to that—but could you say that about Eli before last year? He’s got one year, imo, where he’s fit your description. Let’s see him play that way for several more and then we’ll talk.
Was Eli’s play lucky? I’d believe that, maybe, if he didn’t have two rings on his fingers.
So you credit Eli with the pass? You don’t penalize him for the errant throw to Samuel?
Look at Favre. He has all the records in the world, plus a ring. Does anyone really and honestly consider him in the conversation of the greatest QB of all-time?
He doesn’t make my list because he’s too erratic.
“how can you justify taking a guy who went twice and only won once versus a guy with a perfect record in the big game?”
Because you have to win a bunch of games to get there? Peyton is 141-67 (.677) as a starter. Eli is 69-50 (.579).
You’re discounting an enormous factor here, Bobby. Defense. Namely, Eli’s always had good defenses, even great defenses, and Peyton has always had mediocre defenses.
The simple fact that Eli’s winning percentage is nearly a hundred points lower than Peyton’s with superior defenses says all that needs to be said about who’s the better quarterback.
Plus Peyton spent his entire career in a tougher division, with three of the best perennial defenses of the last 25 years (Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and New England circa ‘02-’07).
Here’s a good explication of what I’m talking about.
Both Eli and Peyton have two seasons each in which they threw over 20 interceptions.
The Colts were a combined 9-23 in those two seasons. The Giants were a combined 20-12 in those two seasons (and the first time Eli did that, they won a Superbowl). In a large sense, the Giants success has only extremely recently depended upon how Eli plays. But the Colts solely depended upon Peyton from his first year there, to his last (even sitting on the bench).
One can say, “yeah, but Eli gets the job done in the end.” But would he even need to if he’d played well for the rest of the game?
“One can say, “yeah, but Eli gets the job done in the end.” But would he even need to if he’d played well for the rest of the game?”
Moot point. Does he win you postseason games, does he win you rings? Who cares how he does it. Did the great defense win those Super Bowls for the Giants or did Eli win it for them? Look, Peyton is probably the better qb as far as talent goes. I’ll take Eli and two rings, thank you very much. If I have to choose. The rings do more for me than talent. Unless your goal is to get into the HOF rather than to win rings. But now the argument is becoming faulty, because Peyton has a ring AND he is a first-balloter. So you can have it both ways when you choose between them and either choice nets you a lot of riches. I can see why a lot of people would pick
Peyton and take the ring plus the HOF credentials. I’m not denying him either of those attributes. For me, at the end of the day, 2 rings is greater than 1 ring + HOF jacket. Needless to say, 3 rings is no contest, and then it practically gets you the jacket by default. Eli’s bust is in Canton next to his brother’s if he wins one more ring. Guaranteed. Then the debate starts all over again.
“Did the great defense win those Super Bowls for the Giants or did Eli win it for them?”
Uhhh… those defenses held the ’07 and ’11 Patriots offenses to 14 and 17 points respectively. The ’07 Patriots averaged 36.8 points scored per game, during the regular season. The ’11 Patriots averaged 32.1. If you combine those two seasons for the Patriots, they played 38 games, 7 of which they scored under 25 points, and the only games in which the ’07 and ’11 Patriots scored under 20 points were against the Giants defense.
Yeah, Eli made a great throw to Manningham late in the game in the last Superbowl, but you’re seriously not telling me the defense’s ability to hold two incredibly powerful offenses to at least two-three touchdowns below their season average didn’t help him out, quite a bit… Are you?
P.S. – The ’09 Saints averaged 31.9 Points Scored per game, and scored 31 points in the Superbowl. The ’06 Bears averaged 26.7, and scored 17 in the Superbowl. Which one did Peyton win, again?
“Does he win you postseason games”
Peyton’s still won more postseason games :)
If you look at the Giants postseason games, the outcome is clearly linked most directly to the defense. If the Giants defense gives up 23 points, they lose. If they give up less than 23, they win.
So OT, but Miles Austin has a hammy (yep, another), and while Dez Bryant is apparently dominating practice and making “circus catches” like a madman, there are rumors that the Joneses are hitting up Plaxico Burress to shore up our receiver core.
Stephen Jones denied it but I think he’s playing poker. For me, I like the way he operates. Interested to see how the franchise fares when Jerry dies/retires.
Would love to see Plax with a star on his helmet. If TO and Moss can get another chance, Plax can too.
Of course defense is important to winning championships, and football is a team game. And yes, the Giants held Brady in check twice. My point was that at the end of the game, when a big play was needed to put them over the top and deliver a trophy, Eli made that big play. But yes, you need a good defense to win. You need good receivers to catch the ball too. And a good line to protect you. All that. The only time I’ve seen a defense literally win a championship is when the Ravens did it. Maybe also the Bucs. Otherwise, your qb has to go out there and stick the dagger in.
Hard wake up for the bear fans in me. Still think we’re have the team to kick some ass this year…!
Yeah, I wouldn’t be too concerned about last night as a Bears fan. Cutler didn’t play. Forte didn’t play. Urlacher didn’t play. Marshall was only targeted once. Hester wasn’t targeted at all. What I would take away from that game was how good the Bears top draft picks looked—Alshon Jeffrey looked great and that Shea McClellin got to the quarterback a few times an got one sack.
The Cowboys desperately need WR depth, and Plax is a big red zone target. You may not be able to count on him to play an entire game, though. And he certainly isn’t a long term solution.
I try not to get too wrapped up in preseason games, but it’s pretty concerning to me when I see the Eagles back seven making the same kind of mistakes they were making last year:
Can’t use the “no full offseason” excuse this time around. The defensive line is going to be pretty great this year, though. Trent Cole and Jason Babin missed the game, but the line still got seven sacks and were living in Pittsburgh’s backfield all game long.
“And yes, the Giants held Brady in check twice.”
Here’s where I don’t get your logic.
You talked about the 2000 Ravens. Alright.
The 2000 New York Giants averaged 20.5 points in the regular season. They scored 7 in the Superbowl. A difference of 13.5 points. The 2007 Giants held the 2007 Patriots to 22.8 points under their season average. The 2011 Giants held the 2011 Patriots to 15.1 points below their season average.
The Giants defense was actually more effective at “checking” the Patriots offense than the Ravens were at “checking” the Giants offense, in both of their wins. And the Ravens are the team you cited as the only defense that singlehandedly won a Superbowl by themselves.
Come on, man. Peyton has never, in his entire career, had that kind of help. If Peyton’s defenses could hold Superbowl caliber teams to two-three touchdowns below their average, are we really going to argue that he’d have but one Superbowl? I’d guess he’d have probably as many as Brady, maybe even as many as Bradshaw and Montana.
I’m a yes on Plaxico Burress to for Dallas.
“I’d guess he’d have probably as many as Brady, maybe even as many as Bradshaw and Montana.”
With those defenses? Hell, yeah.
Falderal said, If Peyton’s defenses could hold Superbowl caliber teams to two-three touchdowns below their average, are we really going to argue that he’d have but one Superbowl?
Right, but to be fair, I think Peyton’s style of play is linked to the quality of defense. It’s difficult to have a great defense in an uptempo passing attack style of offense.
“It’s difficult to have a great defense in an uptempo passing attack style of offense.”
Mr. Montana and Mr. Young beg to differ…
It sorta depends on whether or not your offense can hold on to the ball.
But the biggest issue with the Colts defense is that in the Manning era they tended to focus of offense in the draft and, with the exception of Freeney in 2002 and Mathis in 2003, when they did take a defensive player high, they either chose badly or the player didn’t work out long term (Bob Sanders, Rob Morris)
I wouldn’t call them uptempo. (They certainly didn’t run the no-huddle in non-two-minute drill situations.
Right. But I don’t think Manning ran a passing-ball-control style offense.
But the biggest issue with the Colts defense is that in the Manning era they tended to focus of offense…
Yeah, that’s a factor, too.
Let me just say I never thought there would ever be a remotely serious conversation about Peyton versus Eli and I am Giants fan and long-time defender of him. Honestly, last season should remove all doubt he is among the best (not the all-time best, of course, which Peyton most certainly is in the conversation). We would have been lucky to win 6 games without his 4th quarter heroics in the regular season when the defense was a total mess.
Pre-season starts for a lot of teams tonight:
Incoming Tebowmania alert with Jets vs. Bengals
Giants at Jacksonville- Word out of Jacksonville is that Weaver firing Coughlin was a turning point in the franchise for all the terrible ways, like their future (deservedly) as a football city being very questionable. Coughlin with that 2003 NFL QB class would have been a little too risky, actually, with only Palmer being somewhat respectable so unless the team kept Brunnell, they were screwed. Coughlin smartly stood pat for a year and waited for the Giants job to open, which in hindsight was a done deal considering the Maras wanting to send a message to the roster and their relationship to Coughlin as a Parcells assistant.
Browns at Detroit
Bucs at Miami, two new coaches in place and there seems to be a lot of positive vibes about Schiano (then again, there were a lot of people who liked Raheem Morris) while there have been a lot of bad vibes out of Miami since they practically sabotaged themselves in the Peyton Manning sweepstakes.
Arizona at KC
-So is Whisenhunt on the hot seat at all this year? What is their QB situation?
Minnesota at San Francisco
-I am curious about Jim Harbaugh: Year 2. He just seems pretty volatile and I could see a real under-performance or them getting closer under a la Mike Tomlin with the Steelers in Year 2 could be in the cards. I really do not know. Could come from Alex Smith but can the defense actually duplicate last season’s numbers?
Too much math. I don’t care about averages. If you hold a team to 7 points in a Super Bowl, your defense just won the game for you. End of story. Last time someone was held to as few or less points was in the 70s. I’d call that special.
Ok. So do we wanna argue that if Peyton had defenses like the Ravens or Giants, then he would have 5 or 6 rings? Fine. He would. I tell ya, Eli gets no respect. That’s fine. He doesn’t need it. He’s polishing rings at home. That’s extremely rare company to be a QB with more than one ring. The absolute best of the best. I wouldn’t call it a coincidence. Then again, I’m not calling Eli the best of the best either. It is what it is. The debate is getting boring now.
Speaking of the sloppiness of the Eagles, the Packers looked awfully sloppy too. I think they should be a touch concerned. I’m sure McCarthy was quite unhappy.
The Packers defense was absolute garbage last year, which really surprised me, given how well they played down the stretch during their Super Bowl run. As near as I can figure, the recent trend for Super Bowl-winning teams is: struggle through early season injuries, sneak into the playoffs, have your defense wake up and your QB get hot in January/February. It’s so simple, I wonder why every team isn’t doing the same thing.
The only thing about Plaxico is that I would want it stipulated in his contract that off the field he stays away from Dez Bryant.
And I don’t know if you guys have heard of Cole Beasley, but wow. He’s only like 5’8" but he is a ball magnet and he’s so quick off the line that no one can keep up with him. He’s making plays out there.
And this is embarrassing—the starting O Line was just practicing so poorly that Garrett pulled them and put the #2s in. Ruh-roh!
I don’t know if saying that Eli is as good as Peyton is the same as not giving him respect, Bobby.
“But I don’t think Manning ran a passing-ball-control style offense.”
Not in the classic sense, no, but they were able to lengthen drives back when they had James and, to a lesser extent, Addai, in a way that they weren’t always able to without them.
The flip side of that, though, is that Dungy’s Tampa 2 was never really a “get the defense off the field as quickly as possible” style of defense like the 46 Defense and the Steelers and Ravens variants of the 3-4 were.
“So do we wanna argue that if Peyton had defenses like the Ravens or Giants, then he would have 5 or 6 rings? Fine.”
That’s not actually what I said. I said if he had a defense like Eli’s he would have three or four rings.
It’s not even difficult math. When the Colts defense held their opponents to below their season average, they won the Superbowl. When they didn’t, they lost.
I definitely don’t think Eli would have two rings if the Patriots had scored 39 points in ’07, or 32 last year. I was just asking to weigh their postseason experiences a little more fairly.
Yes, the recent trend for Super Bowl winners is to get hot at the end of the season. Beware of teams that peak too early. And beware of a team trying to go undefeated like the famous Miami Dolphins. It’s not gonna happen!
You want to be playing your best football from December on out. Everything before that is just keeping yourself in the conversation in your division (which means beating the teams in your division).
Lot of injuries already. Garrard hurt a knee for the Dolphins, the Bengals lost Travelle Wharton for the year, Massaquoi got another concussion for the Browns, Ryan Matthews broke his clavicle for the Chargers.
…which reminds me…the Jets have Tebow on special teams. Amy Lawrence was going off on this last night—about how crazy it was to have Tebow playing special teams. I think she has a good point. Who’s Miami’s back-up?
Far as I know, Matt Moore is still the Dolphins #2. Ryan Tannehill is #3, and is the presumptive heir apparent.