Pulp Fiction is the Greatest Film Ever, Anyone who doesn't agree is a Republican

“We are those people, those people are you.”

- fake presidential candidate speech

We the THOSE People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

-Preamble to the US Constitution

^ HA HA HA

“We have met the enemy, and he is us.”

—Walt Kelly (Pogo)

“i comprehend entirely but feel that that doesn’t justify curtailing people’s freedoms.”

If I have a legitimate mortgage and live in an area where property values are destroyed by subprimes, if I’m a teacher whose pension is looted, if the proliferation of derivatives turns out to have substantially weakened the financial system rather than strengthened it—these things aren’t curtailing anybody’s freedom? Or were those not the “people” that you had in mind?

(P.S. shouldn’t this be moved to “Off Topic” by now?)

^ Word.

since it is about politics, maybe it should be move to OFFul Topics.

“because i don’t feel sorry for someone who makes a stupid financial decision and then blames others?”

So the poor are poor because they’re stupid and no other reasons? And I instead should feel sorry for the rich and powerful because they work so hard yet the gov’t takes away all their money.

That’s like feeling sorry for white people because of all the disadvantages they have.

“(P.S. shouldn’t this be moved to “Off Topic” by now?)”

At this point, any thread that references Tarantino is automatically Off Topic.

^ lol! Ummmm…. yeah.

“If I have a legitimate mortgage and live in an area where property values are destroyed by subprimes, if I’m a teacher whose pension is looted, if the proliferation of derivatives turns out to have substantially weakened the financial system rather than strengthened it—these things aren’t curtailing anybody’s freedom? Or were those not the “people” that you had in mind?”

Come on, Matt, Curtis is clearly pulling our chains with this ridiculous nonsense.

And if he isn’t, we can take heart that he’s living in the most ridiculously overpriced and overheated real estate markets in the world right now that will come collapsing down upon him.

Here’s another pic, in honor of Ben. :D

“Anyone who agrees is a violence loving fourteen year old boy.”

this^

“clearly pulling our chains with this ridiculous nonsense”

But couldn’t we say that about the nonsense that has come out of the GOP over the past year.

Yeah, we’d like to think they were just joshin’, but they are serious, and that’s the problem, they actually believe the shit that is coming out of their mouths.

@santino
“So the poor are poor because they’re stupid and no other reasons? And I instead should feel sorry for the rich and powerful because they work so hard yet the gov’t takes away all their money.”

when did i say that? some people are poor because they make bad decisions; some people are poor because they were born into unfortunate circumstances; i imagine most people who are poor (in my country anyway) are poor for a combination of those two reasons

i didn’t say you should or shouldn’t feel sorry for poor people. do what you like. i also didn’t say that i don’t feel sorry for poor people. i said i don’t feel sorry for poor people who are poor because of their own decisions but who do not take responsibility for such decisions. someone who paid $400k for a house in 2008 that was worth $175k by 2009 made a poor decision, period. there’s no debating that. it’s common fucking sense. paying $400k for something that’s worth $175k is a god damn horrible decision. now, if such a person owns up to the fact that he made a poor decision, admits that he didn’t have the business acumen to make a wiser financial choice, and expresses a desire to educate himself, i would have the utmost respect and compassion for him, and feel truly sorry for the fact that his good intentions and attempts at prudence landed him in a financial mess. but, if he blames others for the fact that he consensually traded $400k in cash for property that had an intrinsic value of $175k, then no, i have no respect, pity, compassion, or anything other than disgust for such a person

@matt parks
“If I have a legitimate mortgage and live in an area where property values are destroyed by subprimes, if I’m a teacher whose pension is looted, if the proliferation of derivatives turns out to have substantially weakened the financial system rather than strengthened it—these things aren’t curtailing anybody’s freedom? Or were those not the “people” that you had in mind?”

two things. first of all, property values weren’t destroyed by subprime lending. the prices were inflated in the first place by rampant subprime lending and now, post-subprime lending, the prices have returned to more realistic indications of value

second of all, no, that’s not a violation of any freedom. there’s no “freedom to be immune to making a bad investment.” fuck all that socialist “positive freedom vs. negative freedom” noise; it’s academic bullshit. if you make an investment, it might be a bad one. that is the nature of investment

the problem with most socialists, as i see things, is denial with regards to value systems. do you think capitalists are evil? do you think capitalists don’t want the world to be a better place? of course we do. however, you and i have different definitions of good. we find value in different things. i find value in freedom. you find value in security, in safety, and so on. that’s fine. it’s not a big deal. you think security is more important than freedom. you think that the ends (a secure and safe world for all) can justify the means (violating the freedoms of individuals). all socialists do. i’m a capitalist, so i don’t. as soon as you admit that, instead of trying to argue what any rational person would instantly regard as patently false (that capitalism can curtail freedom, or that socialism can produce it), we can move forward with the discussion

Capitalism creates even more slaves than any other systems, don’t delude yourself thinking any different

“Most people with a six-figure income and above vote Republican, so I’m sure there are plenty here (the fiscal conservative/social moderate to left of center demographic).”

So, most of the people that work in the the entertainment industry are Republicans? I mean who the hell are we fooling, actors and directors aren’t exactly the middle class.

“first of all, property values weren’t destroyed by subprime lending. the prices were inflated in the first place by rampant subprime lending and now, post-subprime lending, the prices have returned to more realistic indications of value”

A bubble isn’t destroyed when it’s burst, Curtis? If you had to buy a house in, say, 2006, you had to pay the market price. You can’t argue the market down to a “more realistic indication of value.”

“there’s no “freedom to be immune to making a bad investment.” "

Really? So, there aren’t any laws against selling investments products that are fundamentally unsound anywhere in the market? Why didn’t Bernie Madoff’s people evoke the “there’s no freedom to be immune from making bad investments” defense. Or would you consider 11 federal felonies to be just legal bullshit?

“someone who paid $400k for a house in 2008 that was worth $175k by 2009 made a poor decision, period. there’s no debating that. it’s common fucking sense. paying $400k for something that’s worth $175k is a god damn horrible decision.”

Wait, what? If a house is worth $400k, why is that a poor decision for them to buy it? How are you to know that it’s going to drop exponentially within a year? Especially when it’s been going up consistently year after year. You may say that that $400k price tag was too much but where I live, that’s a bargain (even ten years ago). It’s not a horrible decision when year after year you see home prices go up. My parents bought a house in 2000 that was roughly $400k. But two years prior, that house was selling for $300k. Were my parents foolish for buying that house? I don’t know – two years later that same house in their neighborhood was selling for $800k. So I’d say they got a bargain. Today of course it’s gone down from $800k to roughly $500k or $600k. But they’re still ahead of the game.

The point is, you can’t predict the market. THAT’S foolish.

And of course this corner you’ve painted yourself in with “socialists” versus “capitalists” only substantiates your inability to see beyond labels and name calling. I don’t understand why you don’t just call us all communists – at least then we’d have better theme music.

@ Matt -

“Or would you consider 11 federal felonies to be just legal bullshit?”

Well, yes. Curtis already said he didn’t like regulation. So really, Madoff should not be in prison.

“Pulp Fiction is the Greatest Film Ever, Anyone who doesn’t agree is a Republican”

Mabye Reublicans are the only ones that can tell the difference between a square & a rectangle.

“the problem with most socialists, as i see things, is denial with regards to value systems.”

How can you make this claim, Curtis, when you don’t appear to comprehend the basic principles of a theory of economic value? It’s actually a very anti-capitalist attitude to suggest that values have “intrinsic” worth – especially concerning something like house prices. Also, if you look outside of Milton Friedman’s notion of freedom, you might find that freedom doesn’t come with monetary value attached either. I still think you must be kidding – the way you throw around the “socialist” label, you must be Lemonglow’s younger brother or alter ego.

@uli
“Capitalism creates even more slaves than any other systems, don’t delude yourself thinking any different”

thank you for your vapid and unsubstantiated contribution!
-
@saint matthew parks
“If you had to buy a house in, say, 2006, you had to pay the market price. You can’t argue the market down to a “more realistic indication of value.””

you can rent. indeed, if housing prices are inflated, renting is the optimal choice until prices more accurately reflect inherent worth

“Really? So, there aren’t any laws against selling investments products that are fundamentally unsound anywhere in the market? Why didn’t Bernie Madoff’s people evoke the “there’s no freedom to be immune from making bad investments” defense. Or would you consider 11 federal felonies to be just legal bullshit?”

i’d err towards the latter… although you can hardly compare tangible and intangible asset sales. they’re entirely different beasts
-
@santino
“Wait, what? If a house is worth $400k, why is that a poor decision for them to buy it?”

note that i said “costs $400k” and “worth $175k.” it’s important for any consumer to be able to distinguish between the sometimes-not-so-correlated value and price

“The point is, you can’t predict the market. THAT’S foolish.”

yes, i can, and you can, too! everyone can predict the market. everyone does, all the time, without giving it too much thought. probably, when buying houses, most people should give it a lot more thought than they tend to

“And of course this corner you’ve painted yourself in with “socialists” versus “capitalists” only substantiates your inability to see beyond labels and name calling. I don’t understand why you don’t just call us all communists – at least then we’d have better theme music.”

there are times when labeling is useful. i’ve already stated that i used capitalist/socialist to distinguish between those who value freedom over security and vice versa. is that what i should say every time i want to to articulate that sentiment? “well, us folks who value freedom over security…” no. that would be unwieldy and silly. i will instead refer to myself as a capitalist because it’s simpler and because everyone will understand me

The poor are not poor because they are stupid.

Well, depends on the poor person. Some poor people have never had the opportunity to improve their situation, they are poor by chance. Some poor people have had chances to improve their situation and have done nothing about it, they are poor because they made bad decisions.

Mike is born to a poor family. He is poor, and it’s not his fault. He has the opportunity to go to a city college and gain a certification so he can get a job. Instead, he sits around and plays video games. Now he is still poor, and now it is his fault.

Veterans who fought in the army and then came back and were unable to get a job are poor because of an unfortunate situation. Thirty year olds who spent their college years drinking and partying are poor because of bad choices. We need to make a distinction between people who’ve had a choice and people who haven’t. I’m perfectly willing to be taxed to help the poor people who didn’t have a choice.

I’ve been putting 16% of my paycheck into a 401k, deferring gratification for forty years. Forty years later, shouldn’t I get that gratification?

As for democracy, the value of democracy isn’t the leaders that get elected, the value of democracy is the ease of kicking them out. In a monarchy you might get a great leader. Then, later you might get an atrocious leader, and then what do you do? Your options are really a full blown civil war or just keeping your mouth shut and trying not to get guillotined.

I am troubled by the large amount of people who vote emotionally based on the public narrative rather than a thorough understanding of the issues. But then again, I haven’t actually met anyone in person who votes that way, I think it’s mostly voters old enough that their opinions are no longer malleable.

I agree that educational systems need to place more emphasis on critical thinking and debate, all this standardized testing has made it more and more about fact memorization, and all the political debate over education has been about manipulating what the facts are. (Texas board of education gets to determine the textbooks for everyone — ugh).

Children need to be taught the tools to think for themselves, but otherwise, people just don’t need to be shepherded, and their own personal decisions ought to be respected.

Uhhh… no, guys…
People are poor because they’re not paid enough for the work they do. People “choose” poverty and “choose” welfare because the work they’re offered isn’t worth the paycheck.

I would genuinely love to see these upper middle class, haughty-taughty office-working “Capitalists” spend even one weekend washing dishes at any decent restaurant and tell me of how “lazy” the poor are, how their poverty is a result of “poor decision making.” Because not only will you not be able to articulate the necessity of everyone understanding the difference between ‘intrinsic’ value over ‘real’ value, or how one shouldn’t choose “video games” over an education (with no explanation as to how the poverty stricken could pay for that education) you won’t even be able to walk to your car after your shift is over.

And not only that, the work you do will be so poorly compensated that’ll you have to take a second job, merely to get by.

The truth is the poor are poor because, in this current system, poverty is a necessity. If you sheltered theorists didn’t have these “lazy” poor people to do these insanely difficult jobs you simply won’t even think about, you wouldn’t be able to eat your $50 double cut lamb rib chops in a fresh mint sauce at your business lunches.

Don’t tell me how hard it is to do the latter over the former. Don’t tell me how much decision making goes into either. If it was a matter of decision making, who the fuck would ever choose to be poor?

Actually Wu Yong, for five years I worked a part time job where I went around to retail stores and physically scanned all the items on their shelves. I got down on my knees to reach low shelves, laid down on the floor to reach the bottom one in some cases. I started out at $9/hour and ended up at $12.50/hour. I woke up at 5 AM every day to get to work at 7 AM, sometimes walking to the bus station in -10 degree weather before the sidewalks were shoveled. Some shifts lasted ten to twelve hours, and depending on the store either my knees hurt from kneeling or my back hurt from standing up all day. At the time the only rooms I could afford were in college areas where my roommates were 20 year olds who blasted loud music until 2 AM.

In the meantime, I was working on a Masters degree. Now I make a lot more money. Coincidence?

“Veterans who fought in the army and then came back and were unable to get a job are poor because of an unfortunate situation.”

Jirin – Unless they were drafted, even the vets made a choice. And even with a draft, you have a choice to serve or go to jail (or flee the country). So if a vet comes back and ends up in poverty, it’s partly his fault for joining the military instead of going to college. But that isn’t to say the gov’t isn’t also responsible because of course they are. If you serve your country, you should be taken care. The problem is that this country does not operate this way. They have a history of screwing over veterans so anyone who joins the military should know that. That doesn’t make it right, but that’s the country people seem to want.

My point here is that I find it suspect to try to excuse one group for being poor over another and feeling the need to assign blame. In my opinion, it doesn’t really matter who is to blame. What matters is that there are people out there struggling and it’s our duty as a society to have a safety net. There’s no way at all that you can call yourself “the greatest country in the history of the world” when people are leaving the country to get their medication elsewhere.

I knew it was only a matter of time before the poverty pissing contest began.