I hope you’re on the defending side because Herzog’s films are magnificent, fiction or documentary.
Like anyone, he can be hit (Aguirre), miss (Invincible) or somewhere in between (Rescue Dawn, which I liked). His misses are probably more conspicuous because he doesn’t necessarily follow mainstream storytelling conventions.
“he can have”, not “he can be”
Actually I think his worst film is his “non-fiction film”, Rescue Dawn (and his best film IMO is the documentary Land of Silence and Darkness). But my question is, why divide his films according to fiction or non? IMO, he’s done good fiction films and bad fiction films (same with “non-fiction”), but yeah, what a strange way to view his films, and besides, one of the major points of his films in general is the blurring of fiction and non, real and unreal/surreal.
I cannot tell the difference between Herzog’s documentaries and his fiction films. They ultimately mean the same thing to me: This Herzog guy is batty, indeed. And I love it.
—DiB
Polarisdib: indeed!
Herzog himself says his documentaries are ficition films in disguise, which addresses both that the line that separates them is thin and that there is such a line after all. Why be tangential about this?
rescue dawn is bad and nothing he has made in my mind eclipses the documentary La soufrière
The real distinction is between his German language fiction films (brilliant) and his English language ones (less so).
hahahaha…you were totally right…….and things are going to get too academic ……shit …that happens to me for liking Grizzly Man….and Aguirre…….and for some reason maybe because I am a bit mad myself…I like Woyzeck….and his madness….plus is 1979.
I would suffer through a hundred John Ford, Howard Hawks, and Samuel Fuller movies for one as great as Heart of Glass.
We as cine-files tend to defend our favorite directors to the death and we lose our objectivity to their films. I used to be this way with Herzog and I’m realizing the err of my ways. Aguirre and Fata Morgana to me are simply some of the best films I’ve ever seen, but I’ve been bothered greatly by Herzog’s notion that a film isn’t legitimate unless grave danger is present.(if i hear one more thing about that damn ship being pulled up a hill i’m going to blow my head off) This along with his other off-kilter views are starting to wear a little thin, especially today when it seems Herzog’s public persona is a carefully constructed image, and his beliefs and statements, characterizations of the Herzog we saw in his early documentaries. His films since the 70s and early 80s have just not been as good in my eyes. Herzogs later movies seem to lapse into these obtuse realms of contrivance.
Yikes!!! I really don’t mean to slam Herzog, I think he is a brilliant, brilliant man so please understand how much I respect him while reading this! But I just wish I could get some of that same focused, non-self conscious creativity we saw in his earlier films. Am I crazy?
I’m definitely more of a fan of his documentaries than his fiction films. I think some of his more feted works (Aguirre, Fitzcarraldo, etc) are a bit anti-cinematic, in that Herzog drains any drama from potentially fascinating subjects, whereas with the documentaries he finds fascinating subjects and then compliments then with his own distinctive personal style.
I found Bad Lieutenant far more entertaining and engaging than any of his ‘classic’ 70’s fiction films (except maybe Even dwarves started small).
Please don’t ban me.
[raises hand] The Nosferatu remake is one of the absolute worst films I have ever seen, thought Aguirre rubbish too. Fitzcaraldo is pretty good though, even if it has no excuse for how ugly it often looks.
What does everyone think of recent My Son, My Son, What Have Ye Done?
And what about his lighter docu fare like Encounters at the End of the World – which I thought was lovely but then my entire Herzog history is fairly limited to Nosferatu and the two movies I just named. Don’t judge me.
H/S a lot ..
Heart of Glass – loved and adored this
Rescue Dawn – poor, did not finish
Bad Lieutenant – had a ball with it
My Son My Son – ditto
Encounters – beautiful on big screen, majestic at times
Land of Silence and Darkness – very moving
where to next?
Cynifile, interesting post.
I see what you mean, but I think it’s one thing to judge a film and another to judge a filmmaker. Both are valid actions, but require different approaches. I think virtually all artists are hit-and-miss, some more than others. Herzog is an easy target because his approach is not conventional and he puts his faith on the images and sounds he presents over the construction of narratives using artifice (and because he talks a lot). Not that his films are devoid of artifice, but his quest for “ecstatic truth” has in me an enthusiastic witness of its success.
Like all humans, Herzog is prone to repetition and self-consciousness, but what good he did in the 60’s, 70’s and even later on, stands firm as a revolutionary approach to filmmaking. The anecdotes related to his process are a plus, just that. But, overall, he has proven to be able and willing to put money where his mouth is.
I’ve told this before and I’ll say it again: I saw Aguirre when I was a teen, barely after I began to watch other movies besides the typical Hollywood glazed doughnut or Oscar-bait prestige drama… and the reaction I had to it fit perfectly with what I later read was his approach to making movies. I saw it out of curiosity, as the “historical” aspect of it made me wary, and came out completely blown away… ecstatic, as it were. This effect was later reinforced by Heart of Glass, Kaspar Hauser, Stroszek, Fitzcarraldo, etc., and continues to impress me whenever I watch a new film of his, with some exceptions.
So, like with a boyfriend or girlfriend whom one loves dearly, I am willing to accept occasionally hearing the same joke or story repeated at parties. After all, our relationship is an open one. :-D
I like Herzog’s style. He’s a mix of all my favorite directors. I see Fitzcarraldo as his Apocalypse Now, with Burden of Dreams being his Hearts of Darkness. I also see his documentaries as more common man than Erroll Morris and his unique dreamlike documentaries, which is just as riveting. His stuff has the spread of an autistic child in a museum and that’s perfect for a guy like me. I like his forwardness towards the fiction in documentaries, as reading any book on the subject will scrutinize and condemn this sort of open answer. Above all, I like his work because for the the majority of my life I had never heard of him and now watching any of his stuff is a treasure trove of eclectic subjects and creative attempts to cover it. It’s pure.
What about finding Herzog the man more interesting than his films? I don’t think there’s a director I have more respect for as a person, but when it comes to his art, I feel underwhelmed. Maybe it’s because his personality offers up so much that his films can never match. I don’t know.
For example, I find Burden of Dreams is far more interesting than the film it’s documenting because Herzog’s journey to making the film is incredible. What he goes through to get to the ‘end’ is more inspiring than the ‘end’ in itself.
I also think they are hit or miss
If his films lived up to his personality, he would be the greatest film-maker of all time, so maybe I am being unfair!
If his films lived up to his personality, he would be the greatest film-maker of all time, so maybe I am being unfair!
and his best film IMO is the documentary Land of Silence and Darkness
I thought I was the only one that thought that! That movie is very touching, but hard to watch. :(
Well, SCREAM OF STONE sure is bad. And I don’t recall liking WHERE THE GREEN ANTS DREAM, but it was a crap VHS dub….should check out the newer DVD. INVINCIBLE and MY SON I both have qualms with but can see benefits to.
Otherwise, mostly genius.
“For example, I find Burden of Dreams is far more interesting than the film it’s documenting because Herzog’s journey to making the film is incredible. What he goes through to get to the ‘end’ is more inspiring than the ‘end’ in itself.”
Well, you know, Fitzcarraldo is one of those films (Aguirre would be another) that really works as a metaphor for its own making, so Burden of Dreams struck me as a redundancy. Werner infusions his documentary with shadings of fiction and his fiction films with a healthy dose of autobiography—the Herzogian real—so these are murky waters to me. Stroszek, for me, is his masterpiece. Bad Lt is a lovable goof on the original.
I find it impossible to comprehend anyone saying they flat out don’t like Herzog’s fiction films…that’s absurd.
If you only saw one of them (and it happened to be EVEN DWARFS STARTED SMALL), you’d never be able to say that.
Well, you know, Fitzcarraldo is one of those films (Aguirre would be another) that really works as a metaphor for its own making, so Burden of Dreams struck me as a redundancy
My problem was that I ended up watching Burden of Dreams before Fitzcarraldo (by chance), so when I came to watch the film, I felt underwhelmed. I’m not that big a fan of Aguirre either. And i’m not the biggest fan of his documentary style.
Reading Herzog on Herzog is still my favourite Herzog experience.
Nice to see an interesting discussion in spite of the silly title for this forum. I agree that you can’t separate fact from fiction in Herzog’s case. He explores his cinematic themes in the same way, as process and experience. Amazing filmography he has developed over the years, and while it seems he is mostly producing “documentaries” these days, his films with Kinski are first rate. He has been involved in a few dubious projects like “Incident at Loch Ness” (directed by Zach Penn and I believe Herzog deeply regretted), but otherwise he has stayed true to his cinematic convictions, which is more than I can say for most filmmakers.
I agree, Fitzcarraldo’s better in concept and is narratively poor, but all his films (books and operas too) fit into an arc and so it’s too difficult to seperate them, even if he has somehow became more pedestrian over the years. That being said, he hasn’t made a single bad film. You can’t shoot films like Herzog does without conviction.
Gringo Tex
I’m having a debate with someone about the popularity of Werner Herzog’s fiction films.