Most people are not going to have the slightest idea what you’re talking about. However I’m going to make a prediction that you will see a response here from Un Chien Americain (am I right T? haha), who has some experience shooting on the Red. As I’ve stated in other threads, I have not been impressed with the Red. I saw the demos for it four years ago at Cinegear and felt it looked like video. The Red is cheaper than the Genesis or the Viper but I don’t think it will ever replace these professional cameras because at the end of the day, it’s still a fancy prosumer camera. I don’t care what Soderbergh says, I’m extremely skeptical that this camera is going to be the next big thing – first of all, I’ve been hearing that it’s going to be the next big thing for four years!
I’m not a technical person so I can’t really get into the post production jargon but everything I’ve heard from people who have shot on the Red is that the workflow is not the simplest thing in the world (it’s not like shooting on an HVX200, for example). Personally, I’m a film guy who has never shot on digital but constant complaints I hear from digital people about film is that you gotta go through all these hoops before you get your footage so you can edit (i.e. processing, telecine, capturing, etc.). But from what I’ve heard, there are plenty of hoops you gotta jump through so you can edit your footage that you shot on the Red. Is this not correct? If it is, that’s a major hurdle for digital filmmakers who are used to shooting and editing almost at the same time.
@fredo, yea i’ve herd some of the same hoop jumping that people have to do and It’s a big turn off, but as regards Red looking like video: I think If you use the right techniques you can make anything look good as long as your footage is high quality and you’ve got a good eye. i.e. Anyone seen the trailer for Mann’s Public Enemies? How distracting is that video footage?! It’s like he shot the whole thing on a consumer camcorder and threw the thing on screen. But take a look as Benjamin Button’s beutiful cinematography and you wouldn’t think that they where both shot with the same camera (viper filmstream) So, yea, i don’t trust Soderbergs predictions as much as the next guy, but if red can deliver all the resolution it promises at the price they’ve got listed, then it will probably become the camera of choice for broke independent filmmakers. Shooting on film would be nice, but I’ts just too impractical for most. Better to spend an extra hour screaming at your computer, than a month in rehab because the film developer you hired out used the wrong chemicals on your negatives and screwed you royally. (although yes I’m aware that the chances of this chemical scenario is absurd in this day and age. lol)
Jesus Christ, no I had a friend of mine from school that had a lab screw up his negative. I felt so bad for him because they had to go out and reshoot some scenes. Knock on wood I never experience that! The Public Enemies trailer looks pretty terrible only because it’s a period film but obviously shot on video. But that’s Mann for you – I don’t think he’d make any apologies for the way Miami Vice looks, which is a shame because in the good old days of Heat and The Insider, he was producing some extremely beautiful images. You mention Benjamin Button but the Viper is very different from the Red and Fincher has worked with the Viper extensively on both Zodiac and Button to get the look that he wanted (also, a lot of people don’t know this but there were scenes in Button that were shot on film). I’m not sure Mann shot Public Enemies on the Viper (imdb lists the Cinealta F23) and even if he did, he’s a control freak and the way that film looks is gotta be exactly what he wanted. So if he wanted it to look like Button or Zodiac, he could have.
Public Enemies wasn’t shot on RED (according to IMDB)
Well, since the year 2000, 3 Digital Films won the Palme d’Or
Dancer in the Dark (low quality DV), Fahrenheit 9/11 (well,…), The Class….(HD Cam)
Public Enemies shot on F23.
I haven’t worked with the Red camera, but I know someone who has. The workflow is steep. It’s the same old same old at this point, if you as a filmmaker have the budget and are going for a theatrical release, by all means choose film. I would. If not, you know what you’re left with. I’m as weary of “digital chamber narratives” as anyone, but wtf, it is what it is.
I think what Jannerd has done to render obsolescence obsolete by creating a modular system is a huge service to anyone who signs on to this. Instead of a full system upgrade, one needs only to acquire a new modular component. The initial buy-in is heavy (for anyone on his or her own, not connected to a production house or without a generous parent), but it seems that considerable thinking went into the comeback. Not bad.
It’s all a postproduction question. I’m not going to be using the RED anymore for my film because a) I want actually to use either the Sony F35 or rent a 35mm film camera (I’m looking for a particular tonal quality which I thought I could achieve on RED, but I’d be a long long time in post at this rate, and I could just cut the crap and get the same effect by shooting on certain Kodak stock in the first place and perfecting the chromates for developing) and b) I have questions about the nature of digital cameras now ~ been reading The Death of Cinema by Paulo Checkchi Usai, who’s an archivist, and he makes a very powerful argument than in actual fact this digital ‘revolution’ is dangerously close to destroying everything we know and understand ‘moving pictures as art’ to be. But that’s a huge philosophical issue and is irrelevant here.
In answer to your question, or rather to drop my own experience into the fray: the RED workflow is not so hard when you have the right machines to deal with the raw. Premiere, however, is not good. For anything much, really. CS4 is better than any previous version (which really struggled with anything 24p up), but I doubt it can handle what you want to achieve.
The other reason here that you’re getting problems is I imagine because of the speed/power/video accelerator of your computer.
I know this for certain~ the day I went to the Mac store and told them I had a budget and was shooting on Red, they wet themselves and took me to the special area with the cutting edge machines. Total cost of the unit they suggested I would need to edit effectively, with no headaches (and they did their research, and I checked it up with a couple of successful studios to be sure)~ $17,000. Base price.
There’s a tendency to get obsessed over cameras, especially these new ones. Why do you want specifically to shoot on RED or SCARLETT as opposed to a VIPER or an F35 or any other of the new cameras on the market? Hell, you can hack various 35mm lenses onto a Canon HV40 (HD) and it’s theatrical release quality immediately. That’s going to cost you about $1000. The RED family especially has a look that won’t suit every film. Individual directors (esp. independents) don’t buy these cameras: they rent them for the duration of their shoot. The FF35 is a hot topic right now, and techies are getting wet all over the web. Next month it will be something else. You don’t mention lenses, or light. They are still key to everything.
Ultimately, if you’re going to invest that much money in a camera to own, then presumably you’re aiming at theatrical distribution down the line. And that means telecine to 35mm finally. 70% of the world’s cinemas are limited to 35mm projectors (and this doesn’t look likely to change in the next 20 years). The one’s that aren’t have distribution deals sewn up with major companies, and that means studio control/virtual monopoly. So, you’d be dealing with mainstream industry at some juncture… in which case, I’d just pitch direct in the first instance, or at least prepare for the eventuality.
Very well said, Un Chien Américain.
“Right now, I’m playing with 16mm again. Loving it.”
Welcome back. :)
Total cost of the unit they suggested I would need to edit effectively (and they did their research, and I checked it up with a studio to be sure)~ $17,000. Base price.
True that. I similarly inquired at my friendly neighborhood Apple emporium, just for the hell of it.
You don’t mention lenses, or light.
You picked up on that, eh? Factor in the additional cost of Jannerd’s prime lenses and…
Ultimately, if you’re going to invest that much money in a camera to own, then presumably you’re aiming at theatrical distribution down the line. And that means telecine to 35mm finally.
And there it is. Can we move on now?
Fredo, are you working on a feature, short? 16mm is aces. Perhaps after “Frownland” and those Safdie youngsters, filmmakers might give it another look. As I’m sure you know, once upon a time it was the go-to aesthetic for independent-minded types.
Actually Fredo, I took out my 16mm comment bec. I am trying to keep it on the QT~ ha! OK, rumbled. Yeah, back to basics man. Nothing like hands on with the film itself. While I’m here, anyone of you interested in heading up a Garage technical team, drop me a line. I’ll send you the demos for the new website (which will be a separate zone here at The Auteurs). We’re in private beta.
KJ~ yes. It’s all good, but getting hung up on things RED is a major distraction, esp. when there are so many other options out there for the independent filmmaker.
You’re gonna need at least 6 gigs of ram, a mac, and I’d recommend Final Cut Pro Studio 2’s most recent upgrade (that $17,000 set-up might be ideal, but it isn’t necessary). Although, I would not recommend this camera, it’s all about the lens (I agree completely Un Chien American). And, Fredo, I agree it looks way too much like video. I prefer my set-up to the red, I shoot with a canon XH-A1 with a letus 35mm adapter and a nikon 50mm f/1.4 lens- the shallow depth of field has so much more emotion in it, where as the RED just adds that extra clarity, which isn’t always a magnificent thing and the difference is minor unless it’s being viewed on the big screen. I have a freind who recently purchased the RED with a top notch lense and all the added excessories, that ran him $32,000, plus you have to cave for a tripod on this thing, you’re looking at $2,500 for just a semi-decent tripod to support it. I’d recommend getting the sony EX 1 and the letus extreme, you should check out the work of Philip Bloom. For my set up, here’s a quick little short, SMOKE
Nice work, Joriah. Very nice.
Thank you so much, do you have any work online?
Red’s Learning/cost/workflow curve is gigantic. Once you get over that Its not too bad. Honestly the future of cinema is going to be whats cheep and looks good! And Red aint that… A world only just introduced to REDHD doesn’t need it. All you need is a decent sensor and a killer lens. ITS ALL LENS. Get yourself a good HDcamera and a lens adaptor! Che was shot on red… and it looked pretyy average especialy in part II all that detail in the woods and alot of panning = death.
I’ve been following what Bloom has been up to for awhile now. The man knows his business.
Joriah, very lovely work. A digital handshake, sir.
Since we’re talking digital, you’re familiar with Jia Zhang-ke? It can be done.
Joriah, no. Not yet. I have major compression problems. What we’re going to do with Garage ought to solve that (VOD) but right now…. yuk. I have two Garage films in final edit (one is about 30 minutes, the other 40), an aborted feature, and some low grade film journal cam exercises knocking about. I might stick up some trailers soon, but they’re the last things on my mind right now. Right now I divide my time between working construction (trying to save enough money to move to New York), and having producer/investor meetings to pump up the escrow account to hit total budget for my film.
Yeah, KJ, Bloom’s on a path to somewhere glorious, to be sure.
I’m always curious to see what others are creating these days, especially those who know what they’re doing, let me know when you get a trailer up. I tell you when Philip Bloom commented on my Smoke short, I just about died, one of the happiest days of my life haha.
Dog, if you get to NYC coffee is on me.
OK! as it happens… we want to create Garage as a production studio online, so it becomes the wing of The Auteurs where we foster the next generation of… well, auteurs. Rather than do this in LA, we’re going to make it happen as Auteurs East Coast, set up an office, use TA connects and influence to push new work forward. So I was going to call for a meeting of all TA filmmakers there late Summer, a kind of round table where we discuss what could be achieved on the ground as opposed to just virtually. Coffee will therefore be on the company. There’s more TA filmmakers/actors/screenwriters/cinematographers/screenwriters centered there than anywhere else in the US. (although we are global, with a reach from Bombay to Paris).
Looking forward then…Late summer. Ozu’s spirit will be with us.
Will there be a length limit on the videos that can be uploaded?
There’s more TA filmmakers/actors/screenwriters/cinematographers/screenwriters centered there than anywhere else in the US.
I know. It’s just sick. And everyone is dying, dying to work. All one needs is a seriousness of purpose and folks will come to assist. It ain’t even about money, really.
Let’s do it then.
Joriah, right now… we’re looking at Vimeo Pro accounts in mix with infrastructure here. Upload space on this site has always been a major headache for me getting Garage off the ground. We just don’t have the capacity for that (yet). The tool chain used to compress films and get them streamed on here is roughly : mplayer, x264, ffmpeg, and mp4box, with audio pumped to 5.1 Dolby surround sound, streamed via bitgravity (which is cutting edge). For Garage? Don’t know. At this point, what the team is trying to create is an ethos whereby we define Garage as being professional (and the work exclusive, not merely some dumping ground for old projects and promos uploaded elsewhere online) ~with tiered involvement for beginners under the idea of a project based film school. For those with some experience and serious ambition, the approach is to focus on commissioning and collaborating on new work, getting funding in on individual projects, and maybe set up some kind of festival long term. This would then feedback into the site and get things running to a cutting edge level.
OK, seriously, if anyone here is interested in test driving the basics, hit me up and I’ll send out the blueprints. Feedback will be invaluable at this point.
Send it on over, I am beyond serious, I’m impatient.
I know, I know. I’m sorry. Send me your email (PM). I’ve been wiped out setting up moderator teams and hunting trolls. Will do blueprint mails today.
And I know that Vimeo has worked with a few people and allowed longer and high quality uploads- I believe The Old Man and the Seymour was 25 minutes long, maybe longer, and the quality was pretty damn good, so you could probably work something out with them, it advertises for them in the same sense, I love the plus membership but I hate that 2gb per file is all they can offer a paying member, why not 5gb per week and if that means one film than so be it.
Joriah, yes, that’s what I’m thinking. Strike some kind of deal. It would be great to be able to stream an entire new feature online via TA… it would put independent distribution into a brave new era. But again, this won’t happen overnight. Maybe later this year/early next, if all goes well.
KJ, yeah I just saw your Jia Zhang-ke comment~ yes. There’s also Nuri Bilge Ceylan to consider… both have shown that digital can be used to create a beautiful aesthetic. There are more on the horizon, but these two~ especially Ceylan~ really great use of digital cinematography.
Reginald Healer Marcellin
I HAVE SEEN THE FUTURE AND IT IS SOLID STATE
I plan on investing in a Red, but there are a few things that worry me. Apparently Jim Jannerd believes himself to be God, since he changes release dates and hordes info and updates his site about once a year. But it is definitely worth the wait check it out here and prepare to have your mind blown (www.red.com). Solid state’s instant memory recall cut’s waiting time into non existance, and the capability to drag and drop pre-archived video files is ideal and efficient, as opposed to having to sit and capture via firewire from a minidv tape.
But everything is always to good to be true, ENTER: pitfalls. I’ve just introduced myself to editing with such highly compressed files from a AVCHD camera (the panasonic HMC 150) which compresses their 1080p video files into a mpeg as an .mts file extension. Red cameras have their own video compression codec called Redcode, which is the equivalent of shooting in RAW on a DSLR. Sounds awesome, but when I try to edit the files in Premire CS4 or After Effects, it lags the computer and freezes and jumps and stutters and becomes a giant pain in the ass. Don’t get me wrong, the quality is amazing, but somehow the program is still working uncharacteristically hard just to play the files even though they are supported formats. What if this is the same case with a Red? I’m not even sure if Redcode runs on a PC, as far as I know only Final Cut pro 2.0 has red support.
So if anyone out there has actually made the jump to red or edits with Redcode, or is just interested in digital film making lemme kno.
Because seriously, I have a savings account with the words Scarlet FF35 written all over it.
And feel free to get technical, I’m sure everyone will benefit.