It’s kind of petty to hold any kind of grudge over an internet forum, right? Unless Santino did or said something that was legitimately “oh so horrible” that I am not aware of.
And just to reiterate something I’ve always tried to communicate, but maybe haven’t in awhile, I don’t work for Mubi—I’m a volunteer. I try to do my best to enforce the forum guidelines as best I can while still having a great time being here.
Sometimes allowing an argument to go on is better than silencing both sides (or either one). Sometimes the forum needs to vent, and sometimes it’s ugly for a bit. Sometimes I step in and feel like I’m doing the right thing, sometimes I wonder. And sometimes I’m wrong. I’m always open to that. I strongly recommend feedback to me and all the mods, since communication is the only thing keeping all this going.
Sometimes we’ll agree, sometimes we won’t. Sometimes I get called a Nazi, a fag, an asshole, or am simply told that I suck. I’ve even had death threats here. Okay, no worries. I’m not really concerned with any of that, but benefit of the doubt to those of us who are at least trying is appropriate, since we afford it (or at least we try) to all of you.
Don’t take that as being preachy since I’m as imperfect as anyone. Let’s just try to understand each other before we jump to conclusions, and my (virtual) door is always open.
we love u house
I’d kiss you, Ruby, but I think that’s against the forum guidelines ;)
death threats?! wow…
thanks jr, i appreciate you
I don’t want to add any more fuel to the fire. Just, in way of a conclusion re my own experience here: We should each acknowledge that every person posting here is a real, live human being. Each of us has our own point of view, sensibilities, film knowledge, and sometimes we can share something of our own experience with like-minded forum members.
However it may appear, each person has their own level of sensitivity to negative or personal comments. Some can shrug them off, some take them personally. I don’t think it right to treat people here any differently than people you would in real life. I think, as adults, we should treat each person we encounter with a modicum of respect, politeness, and give them the benefit of the doubt. Rudeness we wouldn’t tolerate in real life should not be tolerated here. Just because we are usually anonymous, and don’t know one another in real time, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be respectful to everyone here – regardless of where they are coming from.
To me, the intent of the thread mocking Santino was clear. I’ve seen this same person also mock Kuxa K and several others. None of us has a superior knowledge of anything that automatically makes us able to be condescending to another person. It is clear to me when posters cross the line. I guess it just wasn’t as clear to others.
Eidt: Because the thread directed at Santino was intentionally mocking, and this is quite a usual method for this poster, I think it should be acknowledged as such. It was vicious and vindicative. No amount of sugar coating can cover that up. That’s what needs to stop here. Anyone can become the target of this, believe me, if allowed to continue.
It wasn’t my intention to start controversy but Santino is a big part of what I enjoy about MUBI….I love his take on films (even when I don’t agree with him)….and now MUBI has become a lot less interesting all of a sudden and for that I am truly sad.
I think this is really true – and I read Santino’s posts often and very often privately disagreed with them, but all the same the alternate take is appreciated – and it’s what brings this issue back, from my perspective, to the muzzled Dimitris. I realize some people prize civility higher than others and that it was unpleasant to be the object of one of his tirades, but as Uli says, this is just a site. Surely the idea here is to gather as many contrasting – and, occasionally, vehement – opinions as possible. It’s a shame on both counts.
This site doesn’t have an infinite supply of strong opinions. I don’t know how many people like me are out there, absorbing what they read and questioning their own opinions without actually posting very often, but for those that are, the loss of a strong opinion is a serious blow. Personal attacks are going overboard, despite difference in opinion both filmic and political (and often on this forum it seems the two go hand in hand).
And yeah, House, you’re a fantastic mod. Carry on as you’ve been.
As far as Jerry Johnson goes, it comes back to what you say about people having different sensibilities to personal comments. I have a funny feeling that no matter what one would say to a Jerry, or to a Falderal or a Jack Lehtonen or so on, they wouldn’t close down their accounts. Different worlds coexisting in a very small space – there are bound to be muted culture clashes.
Hence the Dimitris case.
I have a funny feeling that no matter what one would say to a Jerry, or to a Falderal or a Jack Lehtonen or so on, they wouldn’t close down their accounts.
Not going into specifics in each case (as I don’t know them) and just speaking in general: Isn’t it possible that those who enjoy humiliating others, berating them, mocking them enjoy such activity? If they get rewarded by such behavior (by the Mubi peanut gallery and mods), why would they stop? Of course, they will keep their accounts open as long as they get their ‘rewards’. Doesn’t mean they are ‘stronger’, just more belligerent, maybe. And what ARE the traits of a cyber-bully, btw?
Just to make it clear: my remarks are NOT directed at any specific poster, but you can apply them where necessary. Don’t want to besmirch any reputations. However, I stand by my remarks on the mocking thread.
Just want to also add that though I personally think that thread may have walked the line between good natured trollin’ / personal attack a little aggressively, that is not a comment on the mods, it is way better to be in a place where the error is on the side of “allowing” things as opposed to the side of over-moderation, imho.
Stronger or more belligerent? I agree completely. I’ve absolutely gotten the impression that Jerry is a belligerent sort of guy (although like you, I don’t know him or anybody else I’ve name-dropped). But I absolutely don’t think any of them specifically get their jollies from humiliating others. At this point I’d rather remove Jack Lehtonen completely from discussion, as one of the most respectful and even-handed people on the forum, and as for Jerry and Wu Yong, they’re just opinionated, intelligent people.
I think that anonymity is a big factor there. It’s not cyber-bullying if it’s just forceful expression of opinion, right? Any personal attacks are directed against an identity, not whoever Santino might be in real life. That doesn’t necessarily make them justifiable, but as I say, we’re all from different worlds here and that’s something we should all tacitly be prepared to deal with.
@oxymoron: Since you asked what a cyber-bully was, I’d like to believe of it as someone who nitpicks posts and even takes the guttersniping on a person’s personal space (e.g. Profile walls). Take, for example, Vanselow to Odi (though one might say it was more like stalking).
I’m not gonna post any further. The mood here’s somewhat depressing lately and I feel that these types of forums will only exacerbate things.
Yeah, I’m not giving it to the mods, either, or pleading for yet more moderation. Just saying, if we want a better forum, then each of us must take the responsibility of our actions and treat each member with the same openess, courtesy, and respect we would anyone in our real life.
We all share a passion for film which just gets lost in these petty, asinine, and frankly boring personal squabbles. The best way to discourage this is not by more moderation and muzzling (let’s see just how rotten some people’s comments can be – let their own words damn them, I say), but by the community making it clear to the perpetrators that it is NOT amusing or productive.
Ive been active on the forums for a few months now and have yet to get into an angry arguement or make an interenemy.
Oxy, I agree. It’s the underhanded, behind the scenes stuff that bothers me most.
it is what it is
I find all this infinitely depressing. Here we are again. It doesn’t say much for the standards we supposedly hold here as opposed to somewhere like IMdB does it? I’ve known Santino since his Fredo days and I don’t see that he’s posted anything offensive on these forums, ever. Offensive is a subjective term, but I also remember the days of Dimitris who was want to throw around invective at anyone who crossed him and did so on a daily basis, stalking peoples’ posts, shouting, swearing and belittling those whom he didn’t respect for whatever reason, at the drop of a hat. This is not the same thing at all. As far as I can tell Santino merely held and expressed civilly views that rubbed some people the wrong way. Of course I certainly haven’t read everything he ever posted, but I’d be very interested in reading something that contravenes the guidelines here if someone wants to actually pull up a quote from the past.
What I’d like to know is what on earth did Santino say that was so utterly indefensible? More importantly what did he say that were contrary to the forum guidelines? Yes, he didn’t hold the same films as others here in the same high regard, and yes he professed a liking for Hollywood films, the big studios etc. And…? Is that all it takes to justify launching a full scale attack on him as a person? And people see nothing sinister in this?
All I can do at this point is shake my head in dumb disbelief once again. I really respect what mubi is trying to do, and just when I think we’ve cracked it something like this comes along and lets all the wind out of my sails.
Fredo/santino writes a blog under is real name with a bunch of guys in California. I read it, but I don’t remember how to get there so don’t ask. Being part of the American film industry, he had specific point of view.
I think we are discussing people who have the ability to express their filmic ideology passionately.
The fact that they bring into being passions in others, is partly what makes the forum meaningful.
GL & GB
I was just thinking the other day, “Christ, Santino is a belligerent asshole. He tends to upset every conversation on every thread he’s on, generally taking any interesting avenue of thought and pulling it into his corner to blather on about his unqualified film knowledge and contempt for other opinions.” Funny, just the other day! Now look he’s gone. There are a few others whom I think are belligerent lunkheads around here—wonder if they’ll disappear as well? Here’s hoping. On the other end of the dial, If you want to act like a contemptible bore join a political site, or a fan blog, there are plenty. Otherwise, be nice or not, but don’t disrespect others because your ego didn’t get its walk in the park that day. The mods are pretty well versed in conflict and its resolution, often taking some verbal attacks that I’m sure it isn’t easy to take, usually attempting to be rational and reasonable for the sake of the site and yet trying to have a laugh or two. They aren’t thugs or cops. If we quit in a huff, as many do, there’s a great chance we’ll eat a little humble pie for the drama we caused and return under a new name, with plenty of emoticons from our friends and MUBI life will go on, such as it is.
In other, much more encouraging news I just found out that Grey Daisies is back!
I just got a little puff back in my sails.
I’m a belligerent lunkhead and I’m alright
but after reading that thread it does seem like Santino got a pretty raw deal from some people holding on to some petty grudges from “back in the day”….
To correct the record: I didn’t know this Santino used to be a Fredo until now. I had no idea he was in the movie business. I didn’t follow his posts on Mubi. If I’ve ever had a lengthy exchange with him in the past, I don’t remember it. My mock was not personal: it was a response to the idiotic notion that there’s meaning in ranking the top 10 films for one distributor and the top 20 films for another distributor. Those threads misrepresent how modern distributors work. They are a lie and apparently some people love being lied to.
You may now resume inventing your narrative.
I was Santino, I cancelled him because it’s hard to play multiple roles. I’m also Kenji and Peabody.
Also, in case no one noticed, Odilonvert has also absquatulated the site.
But were those top 10 or 20 lists really harmful?? I thought they were fun to read, but after I read them I went back to my normal reality: paying bills on time, putting food in my belly, watching the films I already had in my queue before I even read his threads, knowing that my expertise in life is not film and not thinking that changed just because I read through a forum on mubi.
The only one I miss that went away is Mark Vaselow, It’s better when the bullies are muzzled or leave then when the victims do, but this is just a film forum, where has Ari been by the way
Ari just had or is about to have a baby, so hopefully he’ll be back after he starts getting more than a couple hours of sleep at a time.
Very sad hearing about any of the regulars leaving. Didn’t know Odi and Magpies split as well.
Some I doubt those two but some seem to leave just to see if anyone cares (we aint their kin)
Perhaps he met a bad end on the Long Island Causeway.
^ Ha. I hate it when I don’t have correct change at the tollbooth.