“and some film fanatics indeed argue that the Best Director award should be scrapped, with the Best Picture award going to the director instead of the producer.”
I know this thread is gonna get floored from responses but where does this argument exist and I haven’t heard of it? Although it’s quite simple to analyze this shitty argument:
A: the Oscars suck and any conversation about them.
B: so any festival around the globe which has been rewarding a Top Film Award and a Director’s Award should not be taken seriously because both awards go to the directors and Cannes, Venice, Berlin, Locarno, Cairo etc should just remove the director’s award as well????
My response to Point A:
Why are you responding to this topic if you think it absolutely sucks?
My response to Point B (which relates back to your lack of awareness about the well-worn argument that the Best Director and Picture Oscars should be merged):
Well, why should the producer get the award for Best Picture? Why not just give one big award to the director? I’ve either read or heard the “let’s scrap one award and keep the other” proposal several times over the years. Maybe you ought to get out more. You’d even learn how to say some polite things in English, too—because I swear whoever taught you English, Dimitris, must have Tourette’s syndrome.
the producer often scrapes the money and talent together.
back in Oscar’s beginings producers like Selznick shaped a picture more than the director.
Regarding Fosse he deserved the Oscar but for All That Jazz
^ Don’t insult my mother next time you Aussie ass or I’ll think your parents are some outback hillbillies.
“Maybe you ought to get out more. "
My film buddies don’t discuss bullshit about Oscars. Speaking of which, it’s the director yet again which receives the fucking top prize in every film festival, not the producer unless it’s branded somewhere and I haven’t noticed. Plus, I can reply to any topic I want and I can speak whatever kind of English I wish to which is even better than your film taste.
I will say though Godfather Part 1 is pretty over-hyped and not because of all this top 10 list syndrome, best IMDB shit of all time and whatnot. It’s this general consensus of prioritizing the most from Anglophone films, American to be honest, so that the mass retains the feeling of Cinema = U.S.A.
Firstly, Dimitris is correct—the Oscars are little more than a Hollywood gesture of self-congratulation.
Secondly, Mark, a) the nomination/voting processes for Best Picture and Best Director come from different pools of voters, and b) not everyone in Hollywood subscribes to the auteur theory.
edit: and Den is right: All That Jazz > Cabaret
Just offhand, I’d like to say I saw a stage presentation of Cabaret that was ten times darker than the movie was, and yes, nearly drove me to tears. That said, the movie is still a fine example of insane awesomeness in ways that make me spit vitriol in response to the name of Chicago . One thing that is really fun about Cabaret , however? Old-style PG rating, instead of PG-13 rating. What that means to you rental store clerks out there is, get the correct helplessly uninformed manager, and you can convince them to put on some quality disturbing cinema on the overheads with the argument that it’s just a PG rated musical, afterall.
—PolarisDiB
As is the case with most Oscar issues, it’s more about industry politics than artistic merit. As the “godfather” of New Hollywood, Frances Ford Coppola would have been viewed with suspicion as an upstart hippie by the Hollywood establishment. In documentaries about The Godfather, he expressed fears he would be fired. The public and critical acclaim the film achieved was so massive that even Hollywood could not deny its greatness, but they weren’t ready to give Coppola the keys to the kingdom. Enter Bob Fosse, a new director, but a musical/dance icon. Cabaret, also a fine film, allowed Hollywood to hedge its bets.
THE GODFATHER was a Paramount production. Robert Evans was the mogul behind it. Albert S. Ruddy was the credited producer. Coppola was a hired hand. He was not a highly regarded director at the time. He had only a handful of directorial credits, nothing very distinguished. He was on the list of potential hires for GODFATHER because of his Italian name. I’m betting Frank Capra was on that list too. I don’t remember what Coppola’s first reaction was when he was offered the film, but it would be interesting to read up again on that history. (There was a whole New York Times Magazine article about it at the time.) My point is, though, that it was a big-studio production helmed by a hired hand who, much to his credit, stepped up to the plate and made the film his own.
To this day, I’ve never seen CABARET. At the time, the the whole Fosse/Minnelli thing didn’t interest me. After my disappointment at CAMELOT and FINIAN’S RAINBOW (directed by Coppola), I really didn’t go in for big-screen adaptations of B’way musicals. I was more of a John Wayne/Clint Eastwood/PATTON/blaxploitation kind of guy, plus an avid viewer of old movies. (PATTON’s screenplay was co-written by Coppola, so there’s definitely a historic thread here.)
But I’ve gotten more interested in screen musicals in recent years, so now I AM eager to see CABARET. I taped it off TCM some years ago and it has a prominent place on my to-view list. But I have so much to watch.
“And is it really so inferior to “The Godfather”?”
Yes. It really is so inferior to THE GODFATHER.
“Finally, I’d like to say, “Cabaret” features one of the most terrifying scenes in film history, but to divulge it in detail would be to detract greatly from its power”
Which scene are you talking about? I can’t think of many less terrifying films than CABARET. You don’t have to go into too much detail, but some info would help. How about the name of the song in question.
“And is it really so inferior to “The Godfather”?”
Yes. It really is so inferior to THE GODFATHER."
No, it’s not. Both are great popcorn films. Anyone who disagrees on that hasn’t seen art-house masterpieces.
“Anyone who disagrees on that hasn’t seen art-house masterpieces”
Seen art-house masterpieces. Still think CABARET is inferior to THE GODFATHER.
It doesn’t change the fact both are great POPCORN FLICKS.
(and I highly doubt your first point considering the fact you MIGHT think The Godfather is a masterpiece)
Doubt away, Dimmie Dearest. Seen plenty of arthouse masterpieces, from Fellini to Bela Tarr.
As popcorn flick (your opinion) or as not- popcorn flick (my opinion), CABARET is inferior to THE GODFATHER (my opinion again).
^ Absolutism kills opinions.
(are you insinuating that The Godfather is equal to Fellini and Tarr? Subjectivity kills opinions too I guess)
Firstly, I had no idea your mother taught you English, Dimitris, so it was not intended as an insult about your mother (you chose to take it this way), but this makes sense, your mother being the one who taught you English, considering she also taught you zero manners. I’m also amused by the fact you rant about “Anglophone” cinema. Brando, Pacino, Coppola, et al are not “Anglo” people. Besides, regarding the Oscars, yes, they are largely Yankee-centric, but the Donatello Awards are Italian-centric, the Lolas are German-centric, and so it goes…so what’s the problem?
Matt, I am well-aware of points A and B from your post. But I would think with point A, there would be some significant overlap in thinking if not the people themselves (which is to say, is it not true people can vote in multiple categories?).
Polaris:
It’s highly unlikely any video store clerk would have the good sense to play “Cabaret” at the video library. Still, you suggestion is a worthy one—anything to push Vin Cheezel and Mark Wall-Turd off the plasma screen!
Brad S:
That’s an interesting viewpoint and most plausible. In conjunction with what Vic said, that provides a clear picture of Hollywood politics and the reason behind it, so thank you both. Strange that you, Vic, have yet to see (and hear!) “Cabaret”, given you’re old enough to recall when it was first released. However, I would implore you, if possible, to witness this musical masterpiece at the revival cinema. The editing, as Liza Minnelli herself said, is genius, and it really is a visually wonderful motion picture. The songs are a matter of taste, but there is no denying the power of this extraordinary film. By the way, I was fortunate enough to witness Liza in person last year, an absolutely amazing presence and a class performer. There was no way I was going to give up the opportunity to see (and hear!) Liza Minnelli “become” Sally Bowles everytime she belted out a number from “Cabaret”! How often does one get the chance to witness an Oscar winner do what she did on screen in person?
By the way, when I saw “Cabaret” on stage, the lead actress shyed away from dressing up like Liza’s character from the film (for one thing, the stage actress had red hair, I believe) which I found odd yet admirable—when I saw “The Sound of Music” and “Sugar” (a.k.a. “Some Like It Hot”), the female leads were spitting images of Julie Andrews and Marilyn Monroe respectively. Sometimes it’s best not to invite overwhelming comparisons for one’s self.
“Besides, regarding the Oscars, yes, they are largely Yankee-centric, but the Donatello Awards are Italian-centric, the Lolas are German-centric, and so it goes…so what’s the problem?”
Ah, you’re going the awards way and only? If so, I apologize, I thought you meant to strip the director’s award from festivals too.
“I’m also amused by the fact you rant about “Anglophone” cinema. Brando, Pacino, Coppola, et al are not “Anglo” people.”
Were they born in “America”? I don’t give a shit about “roots”.
“but this makes sense, your mother being the one who taught you English, considering she also taught you zero manners.”
My manners are anything I want them to be unlike your continuing insults but I suppose that’s the character of chauvinistic, populist creeps like you.
Dimmie Dearest, you’re in a glass house when it comes to accusing anyone of absolutism. I can see you running amok on MUBI — “NO ABSOLUTISM!! EVER!!!!”
I’d say that THE GODFATHER is certainly more than a mere popcorn flick. There’s a degree of ambition and intelligence present in GODFATHER (and in CABARET, for that matter) missing from what I’d designate as mere popcorn flicks, like RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK or JAWS and so on.
-I would think with point A, there would be some significant overlap in thinking if not the people themselves (which is to say, is it not true people can vote in multiple categories?).-
Academy-member directors vote to nominate for Best Directors, whereas all Academy members (actors, editors, cinematographers, etc.) are eligible to vote for Best Picture, so, yes, you have directors potentially voting in both areas, but they’re just part of the whole mosaic that makes up the Best Picture noms, so, as with any other group of people, you get multiple perspectives, politics (as Brad has said), etc.
“missing from what I’d designate as mere popcorn flicks, like RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK or JAWS and so on.”
They’re popcorn flicks alright but action-adventure popcorns. Godfather is gangster popcorn with slight doses of sociological elements and only the second one is close to being art-house.
I don’t mind good popcorn, I’m all for it but let’s not hide behind our sleeves when it comes to Godfather being something more than that.
That being said, Cabaret is one of the best American musicals of the last 40 years and no Chicagos, Sweeney Todds and Moulin Rouges can prevent that. In fact, only Hedwig can reach its greatness as a musical enchilada of the last decade. (from America that is)
But Dimmie Dearest, it looks like you yourself are saying that GODFATHER is in fact more than mere popcorn, by virtue of the slight doses of sociological elements. Mere popcorn wouldn’t have any sociological elements at all.
As for CABARET, well, it is certainly one of the best American musicals of the last 40 years, but that’s pretty faint praise, considering the majority of the American musicals of the last 40 years. I’ll agree about the high quality of the score, and the skill with which Fosse brings the musical numbers to the screen, a skill unmatched by most of the current batch, the vile Rob Marshall in particular. I’ve always felt that it never really connects the coyly decadent game of who’s-fucking-who in the story’s foreground with the rise of the Nazis, try as it might.
Dimitris, yes, the actors named were born in America, yes they speak English (“Anglophonic”), but you’re implying “Anglocentrism” and the fact is Italian American culture during the early-to-mid-20th century was very different from the homogenised “culture” America spreads nowadays. Apples and oranges, Dimitris.
Your manner implies a severe case of multiple personality disorder. You ought to look into it, Sybil.
And you lose all credibility by comparing “Hedwig” to “Cabaret”. That’s a total joke.
Liza Minnelli can actually act.
John Cameron Bitch-Hell cannot act to save his eyeliner.
“Cabaret” is a showcase for a woman who shall long be remembered as one of the great entertainers of the 20th century.
“Hedwig” is a vanity project written, directed by and starring a severely undertalented hack. Even if he didn’t have a generic name and were given a famous mother and father, it wouldn’t make an ounce of difference.
“Cabaret” has subtle gender gags that are actually funny (i.e. the transvestite at the men’s urinal).
“Hedwig” slams home its—ahem—“humour” with all the grace and tact of a George W. Bush “anti-terror” speech.
Name one classic song from “Hedwig”. It’s strictly third-rate pseudo-’70s glam rock.
Dimitris said:
“That being said, Cabaret is one of the best American musicals of the last 40 years and no Chicagos, Sweeney Todds and Moulin Rouges can prevent that. In fact, only Hedwig can reach its greatness as a musical enchilada of the last decade. (from America that is)”
Here you suggest a country other than America has made a classic musical during the past decade. Name it.
Mark, can you share some details as to which part of CABARET you found so terrifying? Based on your post, it looks like you might be referring to “Tomorrow Belongs To Me.” Am I right?
I think Cabaret is a bit of old Hollywood whereas Godfather is definitely the new. The approach to cutting scenes, changing characters and making it more palatable for a wider audience was part of the program. I can’t imagine them being able to take the Isherwood story and making anything close to his work, even if they wanted.
I think arguing over the merits of the two is like looking at a Renoir and saying it’s better than Paul Rand’s logo for IBM. Both are pieces of visual art, but they are in different spheres.
The Happiness of the Katakuris and Requiem from Java to name 2.
“and the fact is Italian American culture during the early-to-mid-20th century”
This is a film we’re talking, not a whole society. Don’t mix fiction and reality too much.
“And you lose all credibility by comparing “Hedwig” to “Cabaret”. That’s a total joke.”
Why shouldn’t I be comparing it? I didn’t say it was “better” as is the common “folk” term of comparison, I simply said it’s the only American film musical which can be as well-regarded as Cabaret is, from the 2000’s that is. Oh, sorry, gayness and gender-roles aren’t applied to musicals? (Cabaret is touching the surface of it)
What was my credibility by the way? I never implied I had any credibility unlike your superiority syndrome you philistine.
“Mere popcorn wouldn’t have any sociological elements at all.”
Whoever said that? Is mere popcorn just action and comedy and rom-coms, no drama here? Nope, it’s Godfather too, it’s just great popcorn, that’s all. Nothing bad about that.
“Name one classic song from “Hedwig”.”
I’m not good with songs from musicals in general. My memory sucks. Oh, wait…I do remember musical songs but I don’t follow the rule of “pop culture”.
“Cabaret” is a showcase for a woman who shall long be remembered as one of the great entertainers of the 20th century."
Yet again from mother-fucking America, eh?
Liza Minnelli can’t help being born in America. She didn’t choose her birthplace. And I am from Australia, so what the hell sort of bias are you implying, Dimitris?
More anti-American vitriol from your bitter self, Dimitris.
Hey, isn’t “Hedwig” from America, too? At least “Cabaret” takes place in Europe. Apart from some colourless flashback scenes to a country that no longer exists (D.D.R.), “Hedwig” is so Yankee-Doodle-Dandy it hurts.
Dimitris: I’m all for the exploration of gender and sexuality in musicals—or any other genre of film for that matter.
“Hedwig”, 2000s or not, shall never be in the same league as “Cabaret”. That’s my point.
^ Nothing anti-American, just an emphasis on the popularization of American pseudo-quality. It infects all countries and regions.
I hope you don’t name then any other American musical from the last decade that can achieve as much as Hedwig’s wackiness did because almost all were from terrible to mediocre to fairly acceptable.
(yeah, sorry Tim Burton fans)
However, I’ll defend Fosse to death.
“American pseudo-quality”?
So are you saying Liza Minnelli, an American, is only “pseudo-talented”?
Even if Liza were Welsh, she’d be mega-famous and mega-talented, just like Shirley Bassey!
The irony is “Hedwig”—the crapfest you so staunchly defend—would be nowhere nearly as popular if it were German or Swedish. I’d say if anything has benefitted from the spread of American culture, it’s inferior films like “Hedwig”. Even third-rate American pop music benefits: if the likes of Shitney Smears were from Finland, she’d be third runner-up in a Eurovision contest, remembered only for a saucy outfit (and even then only vaguely), before fading into obscurity.
“Wackiness” does not equal “humorous”. The quality of being “wacky” is that of being eccentric, and sometimes that weirdness leads to mirth, but not always. And I would say a black comedy-horror about a barber who slashes the jugulars of customers and has them turned into meat pies is far more “wacky” (strange, crazy, silly) than a film about some hack who dresses up in a blonde wig and sings bad glam rock songs. Hell, you can pay a few dollars and see the latter any Friday or Saturday night where I live. “Hedwig” didn’t have that much of a weirdness factor for me and failed to capitalise on any opportunity to exploit itself for laughs.
As for great American musicals…has there be a great American musical in either of the past TWO decades? If so, “Hedwig” certainly isn’t one of them.
Bad acting.
A totally unconvincing lead.
Mediocre songs.
An East German main character—but not one shred of East Germany pardoy!
Soap opera dramatics that would make “Days of Our Lives” look like “Days of Heaven” by comparison.
You can keep “Hedwig”, Dimitris. I’ll stick to “West Side Story”, “Gypsy” (Natalie Wood version), “Hair”, “Cabaret”, “The Blues Brothers”, et cetera.
If you want a great “camp” musical full of weirdness, humour and drama, not to mention awesome songs written by Oscar-nominated composer and 1970s musical icon Paul Williams, I recommend you see (and hear!) Brian DePalma’s “Phantom of the Paradise”. It’s very glam rock and very silly, but there is an excellent storyline (based upon—guess what?) and a wickedly evil performance from Mr. Williams as recording company emperor Swan. The songs and moments are far more memorable than anything you could mine from the abysmal “Hedwig”, a truly boring waste of time.
“has there be a great American musical in either of the past TWO decades?”
Nope but it doesn’t mean we have to put Hedwig in the quality of Rent. Please Vanselow.
I also love Phantom of Paradise, West Side Story AND Blues Brothers (so long anti-Americanism if anyone thought so) but you can’t really be so fucking overreacting all the time and go to extremes for what you want to defend or accuse. It’s not just black and white or else Hedwig’s “soapiness” is the same soapiness of old-timer John Huston’s Annie failure or the utter insult of a bitch transforming Brook’s Producers (with fucking Brook’s supervision?) in a musical manure!!!! You can’t put imagination next to manure even if you don’t appreciate that imagination.
Don’t forget I’m one of the last remaining folks in my country who’d defend a film like Cabaret because Cabaret for most critics here is as equal as the quality of Chicago.
Whatever, even 8 Femmes surpasses Hedwig so there you go, another non-English great musical of the last decade.
MARK IS SUSPENDED IN GAFFA
It’s well-known among film buffs that Francis Ford Coppola’s “The Godfather” lifted the Best Picture Oscar for 1972. Perhaps often forgotten even by film buffs is the name of the man who captured Best Director for that same year…because it wasn’t Mr. Coppola.
Bob Fosse (pictured above) was named Best Director for his work at the helm of “Cabaret”, the classic musical legendary above all else for its performance from Liza Minnelli, winner of the Academy Award for Best Actress. So what I want to know is: what was the reason for the Best Picture going to “The Godfather” but the directorial award going to “Cabaret”? It’s a rarity for these two awards to be given not to the same film, and some film fanatics indeed argue that the Best Director award should be scrapped, with the Best Picture award going to the director instead of the producer.
I guess this question can be asked of any such particular case: if the film is mainly the vision of its director, why would a film that scoops Best Director not also be Best Picture? And if one follows this reasoning, surely it would then render the Best Director award redundant.
Getting back to the specific example at hand, what in particular made Bob Fosse a better director on “Cabaret” than Francis Ford Coppola was on “The Godfather” in the eyes of the Academy, even though the Academy found “The Godfather” to be a better overall picture? Or perhaps more importantly (from my pont of view), the reverse: what caused the Academy to find “The Godather” a better flick than “Cabaret” even though the latter scored more than twice as many golden statuettes in other categories?
Let us remember, “Cabaret” took eight Academy Awards, including cinemaphotography, art direction, editing—this really was an extremely lavish, tight film. It set a record for most Oscars won by a film without taking Best Picture. And is it really so inferior to “The Godfather”? If it weren’t for the fact it starred Liza Minnelli (pictured above), I fear “Cabaret” would be unfairly flung into the bottomless pit of relative obscurity (you’d be surprised how many superior works of 1970s American cinema are largely unknown by the general public—at least “Cabaret” is still well-known even by people who wouldn’t touch the film with a ten-feet long walking stick; alas, because they haven’t seen the film, they are unaware it’s one of the darkest films ever made).
What confuses me about “The Godfather” is how people regard it as the greatest film of all-time—-COME ON, people! It’s not even the best chapter from the “Godfather” series! (I say “Part II” is better—what, you think I was going to say “Part III”?). So how can it be the greatest film of all-time?
Finally, I’d like to say, “Cabaret” features one of the most terrifying scenes in film history, but to divulge it in detail would be to detract greatly from its power—it relies on the elements of seduction and surprise, as the audience learn of something sinister behind something ostensibly beautiful. The scene in question works nowhere nearly as well on stage, and I must say, I was glad I saw the cinematic version before the stage musical. The particular moment occurs in a certain musical number—and that is all I shall tell you. I was so horrified, I was moved to tears.
It’s one of the greatest (and most underrated) scenes ever committed to film. And it was this scene that, I think—in a year where it was either going to be “The Godfather” or “Cabaret”—probably should have been enough to push the latter over the line to be recognised with a ninth Oscar.