Even if the all opinions about films are subjective,discussing about movies cannot be pointless.When we discuss about movies we get to know others opinions and insights,which may be right or wrong,which can differ from yours,but there is a chance that you can be elucidated from your doubts or see things in a different light.
Why would any opinion outside of my own be interesting?
Its very simple.You like a film very much.Others don’t.Or it is the other way round.You will want to know why they liked or not liked that film.For me others opinions are always interesting.
Everything must necessarily be subjective – everyone has different contexts and experiences to bring to their opinion of a film. How can an opinion ever be objective? I guess if your thoughts don’t make sense or bear any logical relationship to the film of if you base your opinion on something that wasn’t there then you open yourself and your opinion to ridicule or easy dismissal. People can be more intelligent, have a broader experience etc to bring to a film and I might well respect their opinion over someone elses but I am not going to call someones opinion ‘wrong’ – I am going to say ‘I disagree because…’
So my reality is yes that there is no such thing as a right or wrong opinion – I don’t think the words ‘right’, ‘wrong’ and ‘opinion’ belong in the same sentence together – it is an oxymoron.
“In another thread, some people made the comment that all interpretation of the film are subjective—implying (at the very least) that all interpretations of a film are valid. One of my standard reactions to this is the feeling that discussions about movies would be pointless.”
As an artist, my feeling is that all interpretations are valid – to them. I don’t really like the word “valid” when talking about art and people’s feelings about a piece of art. To say your response to a film is less valid than someone else’s seems misguided to me. Who is to say who is right and who is wrong? Who is the keeper of this? It just makes me feel uneasy thinking about the idea of absolutes when discussing people’s interpretations of art. I would never want someone to look at my art with this intention of trying to come to some set conclusion.
So with that in mind, no, I don’t believe this stymies discussions. In fact, quite the opposite. If there was one absolute truth, what would be the purpose of discussion? To simply arrive at this absolute truth? That seems pretty boring to me. I don’t believe the discussion of film is to come to some conclusion. I believe discussions can be open ended and never conclude. The point here is that ideas and the formulation of ideas never ends with regard to art – there are infinite possibilities, infinite interpretations. So the notion that there is simply one that we’re magically supposed to arrive at doesn’t really interest me because who is to say when that is?
@Varun
When we discuss about movies we get to know others opinions and insights,which may be right or wrong,which can differ from yours,but there is a chance that you can be elucidated from your doubts or see things in a different light.
But if all opinions are purely subjective, is there such a thing as right or wrong opinions? Would you want to see something in a different light if all the opinions were equally right (or wrong)?
Its very simple.You like a film very much.Others don’t.Or it is the other way round.You will want to know why they liked or not liked that film.For me others opinions are always interesting.
I know what you’re saying. I’m wondering, though, if what you’re saying is true primarily because not all opinions are correct (including your own). In other words, opinions are purely subjective or relative to the individual. If opinion were purely subjective, then right and wrong don’t make much sense. It’s like saying your preference for vanilla ice cream is wrong, while my preference for pistachio almond is right. “Here let me tell you why I like pistachio almond and maybe you’ll see the light.”
@Junder
People can be more intelligent, have a broader experience etc to bring to a film and I might well respect their opinion over someone elses but I am not going to call someones opinion ‘wrong’ – I am going to say ‘I disagree because…’
OK, so you seem to mostly object to the wording—specifically calling someone wrong or telling them they’re opinion is invalid. Personally, I wouldn’t express myself that way, either. Here’s another way of saying it that might be more acceptable: not all opinions or judgments are correct about a film. How about that?
So my reality is yes that there is no such thing as a right or wrong opinion – I don’t think the words ‘right’, ‘wrong’ and ‘opinion’ belong in the same sentence together – it is an oxymoron.
But earlier you mentioned that some opinions might not bear any logical connection to a film, others may be more knowledgeable, etc. Doesn’t this imply that some opinions are wrong, while others are right?
@Santino
As an artist, my feeling is that all interpretations are valid – to them. I don’t really like the word “valid” when talking about art and people’s feelings about a piece of art. To say your response to a film is less valid than someone else’s seems misguided to me.
So you don’t think anyone can be completely off-base about a film? That they can totally misunderstand or misread a film? Or what would you say about Matt’s example: Bambi is a film about the Kennedy assassination. That’s not valid, right? Or Men in Black II is superior work of art to Citizen Kane. Now, I have no problem with someone enjoying Black over Kane—but the opinion that Black is a better film than Kane is hard to take seriously.
If there was one absolute truth, what would be the purpose of discussion?
But I think you’re assuming that the alternative to absolute subjectivity is objectivity. I don’t think that’s the case. I think the alternative is somewhere in between (i.e., intersubjectivity). Intersujbective discussion is not as rigid as objectivity, and not as flexible as subjectivity.
__
To answer the two points in the OP, I would say:
1. They are, imo.
2. To find out how others view the world.
I pretty much agree with where Santino is coming from. Intersubjectivity, while an interesting concept seems to me to be flawed in that it denies the fundamental intractibility of the problem at hand, then proceeds as if it weren’t intractible. That’s to say I don’t believe such a thing exists as ‘somewhere in between objective and subjective’. Something is either one or the other. Intersubjectivity seems to me to be a convenient loophole someone’s come up with (erroneously) in order to try to quantify the unquantifiable.
@Jazz – I like that you try though :)
I’d be very interested in sitting in on a discussion between two skilled debaters tackling the subject of which is the superior work of art between Citizen Kane and Men In Black II. I wouldn’t be expecting any sort of definite resolution one way or the other.
the value would be in getting people on your side
same with everything else
Wow – what a dichotomy:
getting people on your side
vs
how others view the world
One, wholly cynical and limiting; the other, open and life affirming.
If opinions on film were not subjective what would be the point of talking about film? If there is a generalized consensus on the quality and significance of a film then there is very little need to discuss it, isn’t there? A discussion is, almost by definition, an exchange of ideas. There aren’t too many conversations being held about whether sugar is sweet, after all.
Why would any opinion outside of my own be interesting—unless it coincided with my own opinions?
I really don’t understand this point of view at all. I can think of many reasons:
1. Nobody knows absoutely everything there is to know about anything. A completely different opinion can provide you with a point of view that due to your own cultural context, personal biases, lack (or overabundance) of exposure etc. you may never have even considered.
2. Unless you are completely irrational, being presented with a well reasoned opinion that you did not initially share might cause you to re-evaluate yours or perhaps even modify it.
3. It can bolster or even strengthen your own view.
4. Understanding someone’s opinion (even while you do not share it) and why they hold it is not only a fantastic thought excercise but it helps you get to know the person better.
This is without even getting into the whole understanding that others have different and equally valid opinions is a sign of growing up is the single most important thing that we can do to minimize conflict and maximize conflict resolution, interpersonally and internationally. If there was such a thing as the right opinion and the wrong one then there wouldn’t be any need for discussions. There would only be a record book. Any opinion is valid to the person holding it else they would not hold it. Any opinion that can be supported by facts (ie: substantiated by what is in, and what is not in, the film itself) is valid period.
Any opinion that can be supported by facts (ie: substantiated by what is in, and what is not in, the film itself) is valid period.
Yes, like the actor in the film is 6 feet 3 inches tall. That is a fact that cannot be disputed. It is therefore a FACT, not an opinion. A FACT is valid in that it can’t be disputed. Opinions can ALWAYS be disputed.
I’d like to discuss what would be the value if there were no such thing as a right or wrong opinion about films.
To learn?
Opinions are a way to limit the uncertainty of a chaotic world. Unfortunately, opinions are limitations in themselves. Once formed, they are resistant to change. (Not as much as beliefs, which defy change.)
The problem with the thesis here, is that there is no ‘becoming’. It seems to suggest that art, which is dead, is not subject to perception or that the perception is dead as well. That the subject and its perception are both static suggests there is no ‘becoming’; no cognitive process involved; no way-in-which the meaning is created; no gestalt.
To remove opinions from the process is to open up the possibilities for learning.
Our subjective mind is a limitation, but it is all we have. I do not think subjectively that we can ever really think objectively. For me, truth is something that is dependent on the time, place and interpretation of an individual. How we discuss films is based on our subjective opinions and the opinions of others. It’s just that some people are more open-minded than others.
Jazz, you ponder everything so deeply you must have to leave week long gaps between your film viewings.
I don’t know how deep this thread is, film criticism isn’t science. It is all about opinion. Some persons may have a more informed opinion than others based on their knowledge of cinema, as would a good historian about historic subjects, but cinema itself is subjective, so how does one “objectify” it? One may like someone else’s opinion, because it more closely mirrors one’s own, or reveals something that person hadn’t thought about before, but that’s about it.
All opinions about film are purely subjective. It’s an art, not a science, as Dzimas says, and opinions are considered more or less valid depending on how much knowledge someone has on what they’re talking about. To me, the value in talking about films is pure pleasure – a game results from the discussion that enriches what you know about the cinema with others’ knowledge, sort of a mixture of a coffee shop conversation about philosophy and a card game.
@Jazz -
“Bambi is a film about the Kennedy assassination. That’s not valid, right?”
It’s an interesting question. This is an obvious, extreme example but let’s run with it because if our theory is correct, any example should fit, right? My feeling is to say that yes, Bambi can be about anything so long as you back it up. The Kennedy assassination doesn’t make sense only insofar that Bambi was made twenty years before Kennedy was killed. So that doesn’t really work. But let’s say someone interprets Bambi to be about the stock market crash of 1929. If you can provide a solid reading of this, who is to say you are wrong?
sort of a mixture of a coffee shop conversation about philosophy and a card game.
This is nice, JJ. :)
“So my reality is yes that there is no such thing as a right or wrong opinion "
No, but there is such a thing as a wrong interpretation, and that’s where these threads often go pear shaped for me. One’s ability to interpret something accurately will largely depend on their knowledge, experience, as well as their intelligence and ability to interpret visual information. So yeah, opinions are subjective, insofar as everyone has them, but that does not mean that all opinions are equally valid.
“A FACT is valid in that it can’t be disputed”
Facts are only useful if you believe in them ;_)
@Scampi
To find out how others view the world.
But doesn’t this presuppose that some opinions have more validity or legitimacy than others? If all opinions were equal, why get another opinion?
Intersubjectivity, while an interesting concept seems to me to be flawed in that it denies the fundamental intractibility of the problem at hand, then proceeds as if it weren’t intractible.
But don’t you think that some opinions have more weight and legitimacy than others? Do you really think that all opinions are equally valid? I’m not talking about the notion that all people have a right to their opinion—they do—but not all opinions are equal.
Let me put it another way. Don’t you think that some filmmakers are clearly more talented than other filmmakers? Or that there are some films that are clearly better than others? If someone said that Ed Wood had more talent than Orson Welles or Stanley Kubrick, most people would strongly disagree with this. Now, this disagreement would be an opinion, not a fact, but doesn’t it seem to have more weight, more validity?
I’d be very interested in sitting in on a discussion between two skilled debaters tackling the subject of which is the superior work of art between Citizen Kane and Men In Black II. I wouldn’t be expecting any sort of definite resolution one way or the other.
If you’re game, we should try something like this, as an experiment. (We could choose two different films.)
@Den
the value would be in getting people on your side
But wouldn’t that be like getting people to say they like the same ice cream flavor you do? That seems pointless to me.
@Hell
If opinions on film were not subjective what would be the point of talking about film? If there is a generalized consensus on the quality and significance of a film then there is very little need to discuss it, isn’t there? A discussion is, almost by definition, an exchange of ideas. There aren’t too many conversations being held about whether sugar is sweet, after all.
What I think you’re doing here is thinking of subjectivity-objectivity as discontinuous terms—i.e., either/or. But I don’t view the two that way; rather, I see the two concepts existing on a continuum. We can plot opinions on this continuum—some pulling more to the subjective side, while others pull more towards the objective. For example, I think opinions about the technical aspects of filmmaking tend to pull towards the objective side of the continuum; whereas the opinions about the chemistry between actors might pull more towards the subjective.
Opinions are not facts—so in that sense they are subjective. But they are purely subjective, imo. Or, to say it another way, I don’t believe that all opinions are relativistic. Instead, I believe that some opinions have more validity or weight than others. Not everyone knows what they’re talking about (although even these people have a right to their opinion)….
…@Dzimas, JJ, Hell, et al.,
I just want to make clear the premise of the thread. When I say “pure subjectivity,” I mean talking about relativism—that there is no such thing as right and wrong opinions because they’re all relative; so all opinions are equal value. That’s the context I’m asking the question—what would be the value of talking about films. In we lived in a relativistic world, would there be value in talking to others about films?
One more thing. To suggest that opinions about movies are not absolutely relative, doesn’t mean that talking about films is a science—I don’t believe that. I think this is using subjectivity and objectivity as a false dichotomy.
@Santino
This is an obvious, extreme example but let’s run with it because if our theory is correct, any example should fit, right? My feeling is to say that yes, Bambi can be about anything so long as you back it up.
Right—on both counts, imo. But if you can’t back the opinion up, then the opinion would be wrong, wouldn’t it? Ergo, some opinions can be right, while others can be wrong.
Facts are only useful if you believe in them
LOL this is starting to go into Birther territory….
One’s ability to interpret something accurately will largely depend on their knowledge, experience, as well as their intelligence and ability to interpret visual information.
You know someone can be hugely intelligent and knowledgeable and still be wrong. Sorry I can’t put that into “god” territory either.
Can you tell I’m skeptical of everything? Yeah.
Doesn’t mean I won’t go with what someone says about something, surely I’m as opinionated as the next person (or more), but, I won’t set up anyone or anything to worship here. Anything can be knocked down eventually.
Suppose?
“I’m not talking about the notion that all people have a right to their opinion—they do—but not all opinions are equal.”
This is ultimately the problem people have in accepting this position, no matter how much they try and dress it up. They just don’t like accepting that they might be wrong about something. and besides, people can deny intersubjectivity all they want, but in practice it’s how things get done in the world, flawed or not.
“You know someone can be hugely intelligent and knowledgeable and still be wrong.”
Sure, but i’d put my faith in a ‘hugely intelligent and knowledgeable’ person any day over a simpleton or even a person of average intelligence IF the subject in question warrants it.
Sure, but i’d put my faith in a ‘hugely intelligent and knowledgeable’ person any day over a simpleton or even a person of average intelligence IF the subject in question warrants it.
LOL There are degrees. But what I’m saying is that when you get past the comparison thing, a simpleton vs. Einstein, you can STILL question Einstein and find him OFF.
@Odi
You know someone can be hugely intelligent and knowledgeable and still be wrong.
Sure, but wouldn’t you agree that interpretations backed up by genuine knowledge, relevant experience are more compelling than those that do not possess these qualities? (And knowledge implies that some information has more value than others—i.e., ideas and opinions aren’t strictly relative.)
^^Sure, if Einstein told me that Iron Maiden were no good i certainly wouldn’t stop listening to them but yes, there are degrees, obviously!
They just don’t like accepting that they might be wrong about something. and besides, people can deny intersubjectivity all they want, but in practice it’s how things get done in the world, flawed or not.
HA HA HA HA
This is like “Well I’m sorry but you’re just WRONG and you’re a sore loser.”
It’s really not about that. Why does this have to be about winning and losing? Setting up levels of power? Well ok some people like hierarchies. To me, it doesn’t matter when it comes to ART. That’s not what it’s about. It’s only about that if you are trying to climb to somewhere, and sit on the top of the hill. For me, there is no hill. I like something more than another thing, but the next person feels the opposite. So what? I’m not earning my living creating categories for these things. This is the kind of thing that may matter to a scholar for purposes of teaching or purposes of becoming famous for “good taste.” Perhaps.
^^Sure, if Einstein told me that Iron Maiden were no good i certainly wouldn’t stop listening to them but yes, there are degrees, obviously!
LOL
Sure, but wouldn’t you agree that interpretations backed up by genuine knowledge, relevant experience are more compelling than those that do not possess these qualities? (And knowledge implies that some information has more value than others—i.e., ideas and opinions aren’t strictly relative.
Nope Jazz. I don’t look at things this way. With art, I rely purely on my own experience. And that’s all that matters to me. What other people think, no matter how accomplished in “the world,” means nothing to me. I may look at what they say with interest, but then I will put it aside and go with what I feel and think, and that is that. But that’s me.
“Why does this have to be about winning and losing?”
Sure, but i think with people now, the tendency is to reject all forms of external authority. They don’t like accepting that the possibility that their understanding of the world could be wrong, so rather than accept that, they continue living in a bubble.
A classic example of this is how people like to act as if morality is a load of B.S and get mad when you tell them that it isn’t as subjective as they think. Why would they get so upset if they weren’t trying to reject any form of external authority that may get in the way of their ‘freedom’ and happiness? It’s all about ego.
Jazzaloha
In another thread, some people made the comment that all interpretation of the film are subjective—implying (at the very least) that all interpretations of a film are valid. One of my standard reactions to this is the feeling that discussions about movies would be pointless. When I think about good film discussions, I tend to think of some disagreement or difference in opinion about the film, as these tend to be the most interesting discussions. Of course, people do provide insights that don’t lead to a spirited debate, and these discussions can be satisfying as well. But even in this case, I think “insights” imply that opinions about a film aren’t purely subjective. Why would any opinion outside of my own be interesting—unless it coincided with my own opinions? (Or is this off-base?) Would discussions about films be interesting or of value if there was no such thing as a valid or invalid, right or wrong, opinion?
In this thread, I’d like to discuss what would be the value if there were no such thing as a right or wrong opinion about films. I think there might be some value in this, but I’m not sure what it would be.