i would suggest that the ones we have some doubts on such are Pintille and Wilder belong in the countries where they most succeeded….
as for Lubitsch,we can choose him beforehand where to put him because for Sternberg U.S.A. would be the proper choice.
Ophuls i vote for Germany or France…
i also feel we should be separating the Taiwan vs China issue same as with Great Britain to take part with every country there,from Wales to Northern Ireland..
Kenji,i suggest we also remove Gavras from Greece’s team because he hasn’t made a single Greek film,i think that should be noted down :) maybe he can be a replacement for French since the majority of his films are in that language in part with U.S.A..
Haneke could fit in Austria too due to the bulk of films there.
so..when do we start? :P
Great selection as expected, I agree on all of the contenders and my personal vote for the remaining places goes to Greece, Portugal and Chile. I think Frantisek Vlácil should definitely be added to the Czech team, and I would say that Haneke and Tsai could qualify for their countries of main productivity, especially since both started their career abroad. I would personally like to become the manager of India and can already think of some more directors from this country that can qualify for the selection and whose films can be watched online.
I forgot Georgia, will add. I’m not sure Northern Ireland or Wales (Greenaway, Terry Jones, Koppel, Marquand, Marc Evans), are quite strong enough. Republic of Ireland have Sheridan, Jordan, who else?, N.Ireland have Branagh..
And I would consider to add Babenco to Brazil despite his birthplace because they don´t regard him as one of their directors over here and many people in Argentina also dismiss him for adapting Puig´s novel in Brazil which is of course his country of main productivity.
Ok Polanski for Poland, Wilder for Austria, Haneke for Austria too, Pintilie for Romania, Vlacil for Czech Republic. Greece without Costa-Gavras miss out sorry. Ophuls for Germany i think, even though he made excellent French films.
We can start when we’re clear on the 32, and they’ve got managers, then i’ll do the groups and fixtures, we wait for the selections for each match and when there’s been time for users to see the fiilms it gets underway.
Got to go for now
Babenco to Brazil,very accurate :) as for your comment Kenji,sure they’re not as strong but who knows,Wales has a contender that many would be jealous of like Greenaway is!!!Jones is a usual suspect of Python gang,hehe.
i’d say Roy William Neil for Ireland,the campy director,hehe.
mmmm,it’s because of Gavras popularity,eh?well,he can be added but i’d want a Koundouros to take part in…
let’s hope more contestants and managers will appear…
we do need participants. Scotland certainly in, we just need to decide on the final 2 places.
You do run the risk of some, um, questionable choices by going with birth countries since the reason people left those countries could often be quite compelling. It would be a bit jarring to have Germany represented by To Be or Not To be, or even Manhunt for Austria. But I suppose if you consider it more of a generally approximated land mass where people happened to be born rather than a political designation it would make some sense.
I think that´s it´s Ok in the case of Lubitsch since his silent films are all representive for Germany, but I would also say that in some cases we shouldn´t go by birth place but country of main productivity especially with directors like Hou Hsiao-Hsien or Edward Yang. Tsai may be the most difficult choice, but maybe we can leave him out as a reserve player until Taiwan qualifies and a fourth director would be needed since almost noone will have seen films by other Taiwanese directors. I´m still not sure if Wilder should be added to Austria since he never even made a film there, maybe a criteria for a director to qualify for his country of birth could be to have made at least one film there.
I would also change Gaspar Noe for Lisandro Alonso, his films are also widely seen and he´s certainly more representive for Argentina than Noe who even made his early short films in France and could almost be regarded a French director despite his birthplace.
Oh these are only possibles nominees, examples for each country, and we must remember we’ll need directors and films that have been seen by voters here. I’ve gone for place of birth (with some exceptions) to help level out the tournament, as many top Europeans worked mainly in Hollywood. This is just for the purposes of a more exciting tournament, to give more depth and options to the weaker teams, it’s more in fun not to be taken too seriously. Of course it’s not a true gauge, just a few directors don’t represent a nation’s contribution to cinema, especially if they worked elsewhere, it’s just for this project. If i went only by main country of work i think that would lead to a less competitive and also smaller world cup. I did suggest 16 teams on the other thread but we thought it would be worth going for more, to increase interest in smaller countries. I realise it would be odd if say we have a Noe (or Kieslowski) film up against France, and ideally selectors will pick directors who were born and worked in each country. Anyway, we have only a few people interested so far.
Ok, if as Apursansar suggests, to qualify, a director must have made at least one film in the country represented are we still strong enough? Looking at the lists, maybe so, after all. Yes i think that’s ok. So Wilder not for Austria, he did work on the German People on Sunday as did Zinnemann. Austria would be hardest hit by the rule, so many of their best went to Hollywood, and made a name in Germany rather than Austria itself.
It doesn’t look like there’s much interest. While it’s good to have some in-depth discussions here on the usual suspects i think it’s important to encourage new horizons and try to promote a wider geographical spread and get away from the dominance by a few
It´s still early and there´s no much activity on the board. I´d say we can keep this going for a couple of days, and start with the first round as soon as enough people are involved. I think that in the case of Austria would Lang, Preminger, Haneke, Spielman or Seidl be directors most people would agree on while the others could rather qualify as Hollywood directors. I think that we can make a exception including Costa-Gavras for Greece since most people really won´t have seen films by other Greek directors.
Have you seen any Willi Forst, from Austria? I’ve only seen clips of Die Sunderin, and would also like to see Masquerade. He’s popped up a few times in (mainly earlier) Sight and Sound polls but doesn’t seem to get much attention.
Oh, I wasn’ trying to derail the plan, just point out a possible area of contention to avoid an issue later.
Don’t forget to think of Pabst with the possibilities for the Austrian contingent and someone could always throw in Karl Freund as an alternate if they were big Mad Love fans.
I haven´t seen anything by Willi Forst yet, but I just read a comment about Masquerade being called the best Austrian film ever. I´ll definitely see if I can find that film and will let you know about it.
A possible area of contention would be if we go by main country of work not birth, then the US would expect Hitch, Chaplin, Curtiz, Laughton, Stroheim, Wilder and others- i’m hoping there will be some give on this issue. Anyway, we’ve time to iron these things out before the Cup kicks off
This would be a good alternative for not having to get rid of directors like Wilder or Stroheim, but it would mean of course to add Fritz Lang and G.W. Pabst to Germany and Preminger to USA which would make Austria a rather defenseless contender, and I guess that Poland would also loose Polanski which might be difficult since Kieslowski and Wajda are the only others that are widely seen.
Well, this is a film geek’s ultimate dream. :)
I hope we get enough participants though. Some of these directors’ films are going to be awfully difficult to find. Good luck with finding anything by the Indian director Mrinal Sen, for example. I managed to watch his Bhuvan Shome on a crappy VCD with no English subtitles, lol.
I don’t think we need to focus too much on the birthplaces of the directors. For example, Kenji mentioned than Egoyan was born in Egypt, but I don’t think that should pose any problems for him representing Canada as he is Canadian by all intents and purposes who makes English language films. Anyone in North America who isn’t 100% Native American is either a recent immigrant or the product of recent immigration. And Tsai Ming-liang may have been born in Malaysia, but he should qualify for Taiwan in my opinion as he is ethnically Chinese and makes Chinese language films. (Let’s face it, when we talk of “Taiwan” as a nation, unfair as it might be, we are talking about people of the Chinese diaspora, not the aboriginal people of the island of Taiwan who had a more visible presence before people from China established a new government there.)
And personally, I’d like to see at least one “team” represented from Africa, especially since one of the main points of this exercise is to expose ourselves to diversity. At least a nation like Senegal, with Sembene, Mambety, and Safi Faye might be included, no? If not…well, this sounds kind of stupid on my part as I realize that the entire continent of Africa is hardly a homogeneous place in terms of language, culture, ethnicity, and religion, but maybe we can have a pan-African team? I’m not sure… What would be better, a complete non-representation or a well-intentioned slight bending of the rules?
And sorry to keep bringing up issues—I’m NOT trying to hijack the the thread or be an ass—but maybe Thailand could be one of the final 32, perhaps at the expense of a European side? Thailand has one of the more vital cinemas in the world today, and again, it would be nice to see some validation of previously unrecognized cinematic traditions…
I would personally prefer a Senegalese selection to a Pan-African one since it´s also the only country people might have seen enough coutries from in order to decide, and it wouldn´t be fair to select a whole continent because people could argue to do the same with Latin America. Maybe if Kenji agrees could we list Australia&New Zealand together and thus add Senegal. I also thought about listing Great Britain as one team with one director representing England (?), Scotland (Douglas) and Wales (Greenaway).
Another vote for Thailand from me (Nonzee Nimibutr, Pen-Ek Ratanaruang, Apichatpong Weerasethakul…).
I think most people have only seen films by at most two directors from Thailand, but what about listing it as South East Asia and also include Tran Anh Hung from Vietnam? This could make it an interesting candidate.
I like the idea :) That way we could move Tsai (Malaysia) too.
That would be great since we couldn´t completely decide if Tsai should really belong to Taiwan, and since he also made I Don´t Want to Sleep Alone in his home country would he be a great contender alongside a Thailandese and Vietnamese director.
I would like to represent my country Sweden in this Auteurs Film World Cup.
multiplying and adding countries is welcoming from my side but i feel we can find individuals from lesser known countries to fill in,even if they’ve made just 1 famous film,Grey Daisies already proposed Thailand for that matter,yes?i think connecting countries should be our last option,don’t you think?
holy cow,Willi Forst,am dying to watch a film of his,whatever that is…so many countries,cool…
am in favor of Serbia too (Goran Paskaljević,Dušan Makavejev,Emir Kusturica) and Philippines (Brillante Mendoza,Ishmael Bernal,Lino Brocka) to keep up with the famous directors first hand and of course,Greece is mine :P
p.s.: personally,i’d list people like Lubitsch,Curtiz and Chaplin to name a few in the specific country where they had the most appeal….for instance,i love Ophuls’ German period but i hold him for high esteem for what he made during the French period..we must decide about this but i feel it’s more suitable this way,country of success…
that’s why i told you Kenji about Gavras ;)
I was never very fond of Willi Forst. From the couple of films of his that I have seen (Bel Ami, Im weißen Rößl, Burgtheater, Die Sünderin) nothing was truly stand-out, I’m sorry.
It seems like the film Masquerade which Kenji mentioned might be his unknown masterpiece, I read that it´s rights were bought of from Hollywood in order to remake it so that it has seldomly be seen since then. I will see if I can track down a copy of that film and maybe upload it on youtube in the future. Bye the way, which country are you going to manage, Grey Daisies? So far do we have India, Greece and Sweden, and I assume that Kenji will either take Great Britain or Japan.
For Britain i’m not too worried about Wales and Scotland having to be represented whether alone or within the British team. N.Ireland might then feel more left out. Well, it could be done, by having each British country represented in at least one group match. This is all very difficult! I did say we can have up to 5 in the squad so having say Greenaway and someone from Scotland to go with the English directors could be another way. Anyway, it would be up to the manager, he or she might pick 3 or more from Scotland, who knows? The reason i thought we’d need a selector/manager for each country is otherwise it might take ages for us to agree on each team selection, also for a real sense of involvement for those managing.
Blue Kim; I had thought Pan-African too, as i doubt there could be a full team from Mali or Senegal familiar enough. South East Asia sounds like a good idea too, as Thailand and Vietnam could do with being included, i like Tran and also Apichatpong Weerasethakul.. Of course it would be great to have Thailand in its own right, but again i’m not very familiar (i’ve probably seen just 3 directors, but not much at all) and perhaps others here aren’t either
Dimitris, i’d also thought of Serbia, Makaveyev and Kusturica will be familiar enough, but are they strong and familiar enough otherwise?.
So say we take Scotland back out that still leaves 3, and put Ukraine back in the unsure mix (Deren out would make them weaker) that’s 4, or 5 if New Zealand and Australia came together (i’m not sure on that idea).
Ok, we include Pan-Africa + S.East Asia (Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Phillipines). That would leave Portugal, Chile, Romania, Serbia, Holland, Greece and Ukraine now going for the last 2 or 3 places. Do we have New Zealand and Australia together, and which of the other contenders?
We have a taker for manager of Sweden- Alex.
Sorry, we’re agreed on Greece being in too then? Ok that’s Dimitris as manager. We’ll need to get watching, i must admit i’m very weak on Greek films
New Zealand and Australia should be sperated imo. They both have directors strong enough to stand on their own. I could live without Holland, personally. Ukraine would be cool to have in (Dovzhenko, Shepitko, Deren).
I think South East Asia is a good idea. (I assume that it is not limited to Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia and the Philippines?)
Kenji
After discussion on another thread a few of us thought it might be worth having a Film World Cup here, which hopefully would be fun and draw attention to some lesser known directors and countries.
So, 32 countries, each to have a manager- either by choice or sweepstake lottery. The manager with help from assistants/advisers will be responsible for team selection. There will be 8 qualifying groups of 4, going on to the knockout stages, of 16, 1/4 finals, semis and final. Each country can have a squad of up to 5 directors, but there will be just 3 directors represented in each match. Maybe more from the 1/4 finals on. A film will be chosen for each director. Directors will represent the country of their birth (with a few possible exceptions where borders have changed since). Directors can reappear in consecutive matches, but no film can appear twice in succession. This is an auteurs (director as auteur) site, so films do not have to come from the country represented, just as footballers play for clubs abroad. Selections will be made well ahead of the matches to allow time for viewing. Results to be determined by user votes. Please correct any birthplace errors i’ve made
Here are the countries i propose:
top 8 seeds, kept in separate groups
USA
France
Japan
Italy
Germany
UK
Russia
China
+
-Spain (Bunuel, Almodovar, Erice, Berlanga, Medem…)
-Poland (Kieslowski, Polanski?, Wilder?, Wajda, Holland, Vlacil, Has, Zanussi, Skolimowski..) Wilder born in what is now Poland but then part of Austria, i suggest he qualifies for Austria. Polanski born in France, should he qualify? Dziga Vertov born in what is now Poland, but possibly not qualify?
-Sweden (Bergman, Moodysson, Sjostrom, Hallstrom…)
-Belgium (Akerman, Varda, Dardenne bros..)
-Hungary (Curtiz, Tarr, Jancso, Szabo, Meszaros…)
-India (Ray, Ghatak, Dutt, Nair, Sen, Lindsay Anderson?, M Night Shyamalan..) Lindsay Anderson was born in India, Ghatak in what is now Bangladesh but he hated that partition so i suggest he qualifies
-Taiwan (Ang Lee, Hou Hsiao-hsien?, Yang?) Hou and Yang were born in mainland China, but are seen as Taiwanese, and film mainly in Taiwan. King Hu was born in mainland China, where his films have been set, so i suggest he represents China. Tsai Ming-Liang was born in Malaysia so i suggest he doesn’t qualify.
-Iran (Kiarostami,Makhmalbafs, Panahi…)
-Czech Republic (Svankmajer, Forman, Passer, Menzel, Nemec, Reisz, Zeman, Chytilova..)
-Austria (Lang, Sternberg, Wilder?, Stroheim, Preminger, Zinnemann..) Haneke born in Germany, not qualifying?
-Mexico (Del Toro, Cuaron, Inarritu, Reygadas, Fernandez, Rodriguez..)
-Denmark (Dreyer, Von Trier, August, Christensen, Axel..)
-South Korea (Kim Ki-young, Kim ki-duk, Bong Joon-Ho, Park Chan-wook, Im Kwon-taek..)
-Georgia (Paradjanov, Iosseliani, Kalatozov..)
-Turkey (Ceylan, Guney, Kazan, Ustaoglu, Erdem, Kaplanoglu, Erksan..)
-Brazil (Rocha, Salles, Meirelles, Dos Santos, Peixoto..)
-Canada (Cronenberg, Egoyan?, Maddin, Cameron, Arcand..) Egoyan born Egypt, but as it’ll be hard for Egypt to make it, i suggest he qualifies
-Australia (Weir, Luhrmann, Armstrong, Beresford, Miller, Noyce, Schepisi..)
-New Zealand (Campion, Jackson, Caro, Tamahori, Ward, Len Lye..)
-Ukraine (Dovzhenko, Kozintsev, Shepitko, Deren, Pintilie?..) Pintilie, thought Romanian, born Ukraine
-Argentina (Solanas, Martel, Babenco, Puenzo, Noe..) Babenco, thought Brazilian, was born in Argentina
that’s 29
and i suggest battling it out for the remaining 3 places:
-Chile (Ruiz,Jodorowsky, Amenabar..)
-Portugal (Oliveira, Costa, Monteiro, Villaverde..)
-Romania (Pintilie?, Mungiu, Ciulei, Nemescu, Piui..)
-Holland (Verhoeven, Gorris, Ivens, Paul Cox, De Heer)
-Greece (Angelopoulos, Costa-Gavras, Cacoyannis..)
also, if we have British countries individually
-Scotland (Forsyth, Ramsay, Douglas, Cammell, Kevin Macdonald, Norman Mclaren..) as well as England who would still be seded
other suggestions welcome
we need to bear in mind films’ availability to be seen, Greece is unfortunate in being neglected, Romania has less big names but quite a few admired films on the circuit recently
i would have liked Africa represented, eg Mali, Senegal, Egypt, Tunisia but they may be a decent player short?