Thanks Kenji for the list. I had no idea Daisies, a brilliant film by the way, mostly unknown, was by a female director. This is one of my personal favourite ‘off-beat’ films. Chytilova definitely belongs on any list of female auteurs of merit. That’s a good list, from the films I have seen on it.
Oh yes, with Daisies there’s a famous shot where men are very cleverly reduced in size compared with the female leads, the whole style is very much aimed at undermining the male establishment and pomposity, though its anarchic shenanigans may not appeal to some.
i dont know if i agree with it being valid to pick films from a political or feminist perspective when judging the worth of films in a general sense. film is an art, and as such, we should be concerned with its aesthetics before anything else. bringing a political/feminist lens into the criteria for evaluating the GENERAL worth of a film gives a false lens for a general analysis, and artificially inflates those aspects of a film that would lend themselves well to that false lens.
but i’m all for a top-ten women’s filmmakers list, or feminist films list, or political films list. i’m just not for its inclusion on a general list of cinematic aesthetic brilliance. and no, that doesnt mean i dont want to see women or their films represented on that general list. i’m not being exclusionary or segregational. it just means i want them to be there on the basis of the general quality of their films, not because they’re women, or because they made a political statement, or because female critics nominated them just because they felt like there weren’t enough women represented.
thanks for your replies. in this day and age, i don’t think it’s a solution to have my own female director list here on the auteurs, in any film mag or anywhere else. it needs to be mixed, because films by female directors are of equal quality. i think the lack of their presence is pure frame of mind. had ‘35 rum’ been made by rohmer, resnais or any other male director, it would have had a bigger presence in the critical realm. i think it’s one of the most rounded, perfectly composed films to come out of france in a long time.
about the list by annette smelik: so when she lists female directors rather than males, it’s to boost their profile – does that mean, when you list only male directors, you do it to boost their profile? i think this is exactly the ‘frame of mind’ i am talking about.
it is important to pause a sec and look at a list to check it’s well balanced (as you presumably do anyway to avoid making a selection from one country only) – if there are only crap films by female directors then of course tough, then they shouldn’t be on the list. but the truth is, there are plenty of great, amazing films by female directors.
i’m not intending to start a heated male / female debate here, but i wanted to hear what you all think of this and appreciate your comments.
Well, i did add that there are other reasons apart from simple profile boosting, but the counter-argument that then male only selections must be to boost male profiles would carry more weight if the number of male and female directors was equal. Unfortunately it isn’t. Yes, there are plenty of excellent films by women, (Silences of the Palace, Madchen in Uniform, The Ascent, the films of Alice Guy-Blaché- which i much prefer to early Griffith and other pioneers..) and i don’t want them pigeon-holed off as if automatically inferior either, but a thread on female directors can still be useful to promote awareness of their work and the issues. Well, i look forward to seeing 37 rum. I really don’t think i approve of a film more if it’s made by a man, though of course some critics may give it extra kudos, and subconscious elements come into play too no doubt. And lad mag type periodicals promoting Hollywood action don’t help.
if we want to canonize the top 10 films of all-time, judging from the numerical argument that obviously many more films have been made by men, therefore it stands to reason that they will dominate the list, not so much out of prejudice, what would be the one brilliant film by a female filmmaker that a top ten canon couldn’t do without? if we can only pick one.
would it be reifenstahl? im curious to know what people think. i can’t answer the question good because i haven’t seen enough great films by female directors. the one i know best is varda. but i dont rate her among the greatest directors who ever lived, and not among the greatest films that have ever been made either.
I accept Smelik’s top 10 may simply reflect that what most appeals to her in films (whether this involves a feminist approach or not) has been provided by women, though by the laws of probability it’s unlikely to be purely coincidental. By the same laws, assuming men and women have equal film-making ability, yes there probably should be some (but not a huge amount) more films by women represented in this poll.
But (the admittedly hardly infallible) Germaine Greer made a reasonable point i think, referring to the history of paintings, that although she admires and has promoted the paintings of my 2 favourite female artists Gwen John and Paula Rego, it doesn’t serve women well to ignore the reality that only a small percentage of truly great paintings have been by women, or to make exaggerated claims for women artists.
Now i’d love to say Wales has produced its share of great British films, but much as i might try to promote the ones worth seeing it would be ludicrous to hide the reality, which is not that the Welsh are inherently inferior at film-making but that various wider conditions have prevailed which have tended to support higher quality English films instead.
My own lists of favourites, like many others in the poll, tends to prefer many older classics. Women directors have only been getting fairer opportunities relatively recently- in the silent era there was Germaine Dulac, Alice Guy, Lotte Reiniger and some other even less famous worthies, but generally the great strides in the development of cinema (at least as far as most cinephiles are aware) have been by men. It may also be harder for modern films to stand out as er outstanding, given the previous more marked innovations and the spread of film-making worldwide today. The poll result strongly favours older masterpieces. Films from the last decade feature well down the top 100. I don’t know if polls of favourite contemporary films would better reflect the current male-female directing percentage; i’m not aware of the figures anyway, but i suspect most directors are still male. And that still needs to change.
i agree with what you say, apart from the germaine greer comment. women, in a not too distant past, had to pretend to be men to be able to follow their professional persuasion, and to this date, women often have to act like men in order to push their way to where they want to be. other directors, like alison anders (gas, food, lodging), quickly reverted back to tv because their time was wasted on trying to push their way past chauvinistic producers and they preferred to spend their time producing work. i don’t know why lynne ramsay was replaced by peter jackson for the lovely bones, but it’s not a conspiracy theory to consider there was some gender problem going on (aside other issues, of course this is simple speculation) . yet, there is still a great, respectable body of work by female directors ranging through the canon of cinema history- ok, switching the violins off now.
my point is, that i think there are great masterpieces made by female directors (and painters), but in a sector where most professionals are men (including critics, journalists), they are being overlooked. a lot of my favourite films are made by women, because i associate with the topics and their treatment of them.
equally, there is no doubt whatsoever that more good films (and paintings) have been produced by men, especially in the past. i don’t think that’s because they are better at making quality work, it’s to do with the ever so slow development of equal rights (on paper it’s been there a while, but not so much in the heads). so when i see a list like that, my conclusion is that there isn’t enough inclusiveness of female directors in the holy ‘canon’, and that change can start here, by adapting a list that does justice to their work. but of course, if i’m the only female in this thread, then it would also explain (not excuse) why no women director was mentioned (and that’s a whole other problem).
Verena’s absolutely right. If a man is working inside a male dominated industry he tends to believe men are the only people worth working with, or praising, or canonizing. I know I’m guilty of this, especially when talking about film, I’ve seen almost nothing from female directors from simple ignorance. Working in the music industry I know of men, a small number, who will not work with women simply because they’re women (that may be more a reflection of where I am located (very conservative area of the US), rather than the industry, but it’s out there nonetheless).
Women don’t deserve more praise for lesser work, but they certainly deserve equal praise for equal work, and they don’t normally get it, even from the most well intentioned male cinephiles (like myself).
This is a great subject to ponder. Which specific films made by women would be worthy of the kind of “list” scrutiny?
Agnes Varda’s Le Bonheur, Vagabond and especially Cleo from 5 to 7 are worthy of extreme high praise.
Lina Wertmuller’s Seven Beauties, and some of the rest of her canon, and Jane Campion’s The Piano, too.
All of Leni Riefenstahl.
Sofia Coppola may be on her way, but not really there quite yet.
Hmm …
Anything else? I’ve seen the silent work of Mabel Normand and it is awful. God bless Ida Lupino (seriously), but for all her triumph of being the first to break the ceiling, her work was pretty damned mediocre at best. Striesand? Please …
Fast Times at Ridgemont High? Penny Marshall? Ditto.
Don’t laugh, but I’d like to see more from Liv Ullmann. And Sarah Polley — I found Away From Her to be absolutely riveting.
Oh male chauvinism’s a long way from broken of course, especially in Hollywood, and most of the film industry, including critics and journalists. Even in Iran there’s been a percentage of top female directors to put Hollywood to shame; Samira Makhmalbaf, Farrokhzad (a top poet and her The House is Black is superb), Meshkini, Bani-Etemad…
I would say the poll here doesn’t do justice to Latin America and Africa either- not that i picked any from those continents myself!
awesome awesome awesome.. the only thing the results show that I don’t agree with is Coppola on the list of Top directors- who I wouldn’t even consider in the top 3 American film directors. Robert Bresson, Ozu, Carl Th Dreyer, etc. i’d imagine would be much more fitting.
back to women’s under-representation; well, the situation is no better at imdb, and hardly surprising given the dominance of Hollywood there and the lack of opportunities for women in Hollywood. In the imdb top 250 by users’ scores, we have to go down as far as #229, for Little Miss Sunshine, co-directed by a woman, and none of the female users’ top 50 (only 50 provided) is by a woman. Hollywood, with all its influence, has a lot to answer for
yes, i agree on the omissions on countries, too, one thing at a time is my motto though. thanks for the comments, also to col..
and: away from her was a great film, polley is definitely one to look out for. so is joanna hogg btw, british director made one feature called ‘unrelated’ – only released in the uk thus far, but great cinema a la rohmer.
For those of you wanting to explore the angle of female film directors and gender issues related to film: you might be interested in two earlier threads where this was discussed:
Cinephilia and Gender – http://www.theauteurs.com/topics/885/comments
ARE THERE STRONG & REALISTIC FEMALE CHARACTERS OUT THERE AND WHAT ARE FEMALE FILMMAKERS DOING TO ADVANCE THE FEMINIST CAUSE? – http://www.theauteurs.com/topics/946/comments
I certainly believe we could put together a list of significant films done by female directors. To add to Christopher’s list, and using Kenji’s list of female directors and films on the Female Directors thread, here are films I have seen that I think are good enough for inclusion in any list of top films:
Akerman: Jeanne Dielman
Armstrong: My Brilliant Career
Campion: The Piano
Chytilova: Daisies
Maya Deren: her experimental films
Potter: Orlando
Taymer: Frida, Titus
Wertmuller: Swept Away
This is just a list of films I have seen, not including Varda’s or Wertmuller’s works mentioned above. More could be added, I am sure. Let’s cut the women some slack, because we all know they still face many hurdles on the filmmaking front. Certainly, directors such as Catherine Breillat, Agnieszka Holland, and Margarethe von Trotta have significant films that could be added here by those more familiar with their work than I am.
there is a wealth of different lists that could be done, although the answer isn’t to have a list separating male and female directors – but one that is comprehensive and includes both genders (all the posts here listing great films by female directors are proof that there’s valuable work, which should form part of the canon).
i’ve not read the ‘what are female filmmakers doing to advance…" thread so will catch up. although it’s here, where ‘generic’ lists are made, that this debate belongs to.
I’m a bit too late here.. but this would have been mine-
1. The Silence – Ingmar Bergman (1977) Sweden
2. 8 1/2 – Federico Fellini (1963) Italy
3. Citizen Kane – Orson Welles (1941) USA
4. Boudu Saved from Drowning – Jean Renoir (1931) France
5. L’Avventura– Michelangelo Antonioni (1965) Italy
6. Rashômon – Akira Kurosawa (1939) Japan
7. Stalker – Andrei Tarkovsky (1979) Russia
8. City of God – Fernando Mierelles (1953) Brazil
9. Jules and Jim – Francois Truffaut (1962) France
10. Taxi Driver – Martin Scorsese (1976) USA
the last few were splitting hairs.. I left Aguirre out, The Passion of Joan of Arc, Breathless, Bycicle Thieves, Yi Yi, Au Hasard Balthazar, etc..but they all mean just as much to me.
and I did this on a one per director basis.. just a personal choice of mine
I have a results update. Due to a simple typo, there was an error in the top 10 directors list.
I posted:
The Top Ten Directors
1. Stanley Kubrick
2. Federico Fellini
3. Alfred Hitchcock
4. Ingmar Bergman
Akira Kurosawa
Orson Welles
7. Francis Ford Coppola
8. Andrei Tarkovsky
9. Martin Scorsese
10. Jean-Luc Godard
It should read:
The Top Ten Directors
1. Stanley Kubrick
2. Federico Fellini
3. Ingmar Bergman
Akira Kurosawa
Orson Welles
6. Alfred Hitchcock
7. Francis Ford Coppola
8. Andrei Tarkovsky
9. Martin Scorsese
10. Jean-Luc Godard
Hitchcock received 30 votes.
Sorry for the confusion.
Thanks man… like I told you already it feels good to see Bergaman, Kurosawa, Welles ahead of Hitchcock, or does it matter?
what you guys think?
Sir Alfred DEMANDS a recount – no, just kidding! Thanks, Adam. I think he would be pleased to be in such illustrious company. Besides, he had more blondes than any of them.
I’m surprised to see Welles ahead of Godard, my preferred listing would have been:
1. Federico Fellini
2. Jean Renoir
3. John Ford
4. Jean-Luc Godard
5. Akira Kurosawa
6. Ingmar Bergman
7. Luis Bunuel
8. Martin Scorsese
9. Francois Truffaut
10. Sergei Eisenstein
surprised to see Welles made it at all, ambitious and talented, but I just don’t think he produced enough to back it up. but then, if his total is based on the number of votes for Citizen Kane, that would explain it. I wonder what the totals for the directors list would be like if they were taken from the number of individual films that had been voted for (i.e., 7 different Kurosawa films received votes, 6 different Renoirs, etc.)?
Rich Uncle Skelton, in that case I think Bergman would have won.
@Rich Uncle Skeleton
Whats with Scorsese above Truffaut and John Ford above Kurosawa?
I have no idea how I missed this. It’s good to see some films not usual of these lists like Stalker and The Passion of Joan of Arc.
This was the poll that brought me to Auteurs.
as an alternative to RUS and poll top 10 directors list:
1.Mizoguchi
2.Tarkovsky
3.Renoir
4.Hitchcock
5.Ozu
6.Rohmer
7.S.Ray
8.Welles
9.Kubrick
10.Angelopoulos/Rivette/Ophuls/Dreyer/Eisenstein
My alternative directors list:
1. Stanley Kubrick
2. Ingmar Bergman
3. Krzystof Kieslowski
4. Martin Scorsese
5. Federico Fellini
6. Akira Kurosawa
7. Alfred Hitchcock
8. Orson Welles
9. Elia Kazan
10. Carl Th. Dreyer
10 more for kicks:
11. Charlie Chaplin
12. Francis Ford Coppola
13. John Ford
14. Bernardo Bertolucci
15. Andrei Tarkovsky
16. Billy Wilder
17. Paul Thomas Anderson
18. Jean Luc Godard
19. Michelangelo Antonioni
20. David Lynch
@John Smith
Because, personally, I think Scorsese is the better director. He is nowhere near as uneven as Truffaut was. On another thread (I think it was about The Last Metro dvd release, I went in to detail about how uneven I found Truffaut’s work to be, brilliant as some of it was. Truffaut’s reputation, for me, stands on 3 or 4 films which are more or less unsurpassable in their own right; namely, The 400 Blows, Jules and Jim, and Day for Night; true high-water marks in the history of cinema. With several others (Shoot the Piano Player, The Wild Child and the sum total of the Antoine Doinel films (those aside from The 400 Blows work better as a series than they do as individual films) would be masterpieces for any other director (but second tier for Truffaut). But then he was wildly inconsistent, as I elaborated in that other post (I’m not going to take the time to find it, but feel free yourself).
Scorsese has produced work of equal caliber (of course, they are two wildly different directors, with wildly different viewpoints, working in two wildly different systems (which makes comparison a little silly)) on a much more consistent basis (there are no truly terrible Scorsese films, nothing nearly as bad as The Man Who Loved Women and Confidetially Yours along with a couple others). The number of masterpieces (a subjective term, obviously) just made the difference for me: Mean Streets, Taxi Driver, Raging Bull, The Last Temptation of Christ with a second tier consisting of Goodfellas, The Aviator, Kundun, and Alice Doesn’t Live Here Anymore. So for me, it wasn’t too difficult a decision.
But based on the anti-American film bias on this site, I’m sure to hear complaints about it.
Forgot about John Ford—-Akira Kurosawa.
Again, obviously subjective. But this was less of a no-brainer for me than the Scorsese/Truffaut decision.
I just love John Ford. In retrospect, I would probably move him up to number one, keep Renoir at two, and move Fellini to three (I’m trying to remember what mindset compelled me to put Fellini at number one (again, a little too inconsistent)).
This shows how imperfect these kinds of lists are: Today I would probably remove Bunuel (not sure what was going through my thoughts when I placed him to begin with) and replace him with either Lubitsch or Wilder. Probably Lubitsch.
Kenji
Yes but too many duds, which means his average is way below his best, and so he comes higher in such polls than he would for overall career achievement i think. Well, i suppose it all depends on how you judge him.
As for female directors, i agree with Col. Dax and Bobby Wise. Of course if there were more female critics (as well as directors), then films by women would get a higher profile and critical reputation, which would feed into the public consciousness but that wouldn’t improve their actual quality, though it might add valuable insights and bring attention to otherwise overlooked praiseworthy features. I’ve noticed female critics are certainly more inclined to pick films by women in polls, which is understandable to boost their profile. In the 2002 Sight and Sound poll, here’s Anneke Smelik’s top 10:
Hroshima mon Amour (Resnais)
The Piano (Campion)
Antonia’s Line (Gorris)
Les Silences du Palais (Tlatli)
A Idade Major (Villaverde)
Daisies (Chytliova)
A Hora de Estrela (Amaral)
Orlando (Potter)
Dust (Hansel)
Floating Life (Law)
it might be worth checking the overall result of solely female critics’ and directors’ selections in those polls. They have been in the minority. It’s perfectly valid to choose films from a political and feminist perspective, rather than the usual dominant aesthetic and technical considerations, and of course some female directors have used innovative or radical means of making feminist points, eg Jeanne Dielman and Daisies, in very different ways.
One thing for sure is that women could do with a lot more clout in films, and macho Hollywood especially. The average standard of films made by women is surely no worse than that by men, but here we’ve been picking greatest. In various walks of life and societies men are often found both on the bottom rungs and the top, eg unemployment, life expectancy, homelessness, suicide, imprisonment v political representation/power and wealth. But with film-making the main difference has been of opportunity. Women are still very much in the minority in the industry, and even top female stars have tended to be paid less than males.