The Forest for the Trees (2003)--German Mumblecore?
I rather see “The Forest for the Trees” in a line with DEFA films like Herrmann Zschoche´s “Karla” which equally centers around an idealistic and essentially displaced character in a surrounding that doesn´t fit her own behaviour. There are obviously lots of awkward moments in “The Forest for the Trees”, but other than our usual mumblecore these tend to result from the female lead´s pathological obsession and mental instability rather than her being a quirky intellectual, and those scenes thus have a far more disquieting untertone than I have seen in any mumblecore film.
I haven’t seen Karla and I’m unfamiliar with DEFA films, so I can’t really comment. As I mentioned, mumblecore movies didn’t really come to mind during or after watching the film. (It did come to mind while thinking of a catchy subtitle for the thread, though.) Actually, the film reminds me of other art/independent films that deal with young women venturing out on their own—e.g., Ruby in Paradise or Movern Callar.
By the way, I don’t want to get hung up on whether this is a mumblecore film or not. I’m more interested in talking about the film in general.
So . . . you liked it, Jazz?
It has certain affinities with mumblecore, I suppose, but it’s obviously not that stylistically similar, it’s coming out of German culture rather than American culture, and actually it pre-dates the common usage of the term.
I don’t know if “like” is the right word. It was excuriating and squirmed throughout the film. (I kept groaning and saying things like, “Oh, no don’t do it.” I’m surprised my wife didn’t say, “Why are you watching this film if you’re in such agony?”) But I thought it was a well-made film. I’m not sure how I would rate it, but probably in the high 60s, low 70s—at the lowest. (That score could go up, too.) Let’s just say that I’m interested in checking out Ade’s other film on netflix.
I’m impressed with what the filmmaker did using video. I thought the acting was solid all away around, and I really appreciated Ade’s sensitivity to film conventions and cliches and the way she navigated around them. I’m interesting in hearing your thoughts about the ending and what you liked about the film overall.
I thought this was a marvellous film. I wouldn’t class it as mumblecore. It is certainly the most squirm-inducing film I’ve ever seen. It’s not comfortable viewing, but hats off to Eva Loebau who pulled off a great performance. The ending is sublime.
@Scampi
What’s your interpretation of the ending? Or do you like it without any interpretation?
“The ending is sublime.”
Yes. it is. And as Jazz sort of already said, it’s the sort of film where the wrong ending could have really killed the film.
So what’s your take on the ending, Parks?
Moving from the driver’s seat to the back seat? . . . a metaphor for psychologically escaping back into the world she inhabited before the beginning of the film?
Well, not just moving to the backseat, but also taking off her sweater and letting go of the wheel.
Anyway, your reading surprised me a little, as it’s much bleaker than the one I had.
- . . . a metaphor for psychologically escaping back into the world she inhabited before the beginning of the film?*
You mean, being in a place that’s safe? What about becoming a child again? I thought of the last bit—since kids often sit in the backseat; plus, she lets go of the wheel, which could mean she wants to give up control to someone or something else.
But I thought she might be getting to a place where she could finally deal with some of her issues…then again, I’m not sure how I would support that with the ending. Maybe the end signifies a kind of reprieve for the character. In this way, the ending doesn’t suggest the character will do anything dramatic—either positively or negatively.
I´d say the final sequence seems to suggest that Melanie hands over the responsibility and no longer desperately tries to maintain control. As far as I´m concerned, “responsibility” and “control” are actually the key words in “The Forest for the Trees”. On the one hand we got the school handing over responsibility to a young and unexperienced teacher who doesn´t manage to control the children and suffers due to her own excessive demand, and on the other hand in her free time she helps out a neighbour, thereby overextending herself on responsibilities (as for instance when she deliberately sends away her neighbour´s boyfriend) and increasingly tries to maintain control by pestering and stalking her. I interpret the title in such a way that Melanie doesn´t actually see the forest for the trees in the sense that she needs to to slacken the reins in order to reach her goals; instead she frustates and corners herself up to a point where death seems to be the only promising perspective. Slackening the reins is obviously easier said than done, and Ade´s film deals with both immaturity and serious mental problems that Melanie may have trouble to overcome. But it seems that she ultimately at least discovers the crux of the matter that keeps her from enjoying her social life.
@Apu
…and suffers due to her own excessive demand,…
By “demand,” do you mean of the students, herself or both? Personally, I think she suffers because she doesn’t have good classroom management skills. What makes her suffer more is that she a) doesn’t really admit these problems and try to get help; b) she doesn’t have a lot of people she feels comfortable doing this with. Why do you guys think she doesn’t open up to Thorsten, who seems like a decent guy? I believe that she describes him as a know-it-all in a phone conversation with a friend, but he doesn’t seem to be that way. He seems kind of dorky, but that’s seems like a shallow reason to not make friends with him. She might be worried about leading him on, but I think she could confide in him about work without leading him on.
…on the other hand in her free time she helps out a neighbour, thereby overextending herself on responsibilities (as for instance when she deliberately sends away her neighbour´s boyfriend) and increasingly tries to maintain control by pestering and stalking her.
But you didn’t think she was doing the right thing by telling Tobias that he probably shouldn’t stop by? Melanie just heard Tina say that she hopes Tobias doesn’t show up. If Melanie hadn’t said anything and Tobias showed up and Tina went crazy or got really depressed, I think Melanie would be right to be feel bad.
As for stalking Tina, I don’t think this is a control issue so much as a loneliness issue. You know how starving people will do almost anything to eat? I think loneliness can be a form of emotional starvation. It can lead people to behave in desperate ways. That doesn’t make her behavior less obnoxious, but I don’t think it’s necessarily a control issue.
…and Ade´s film deals with both immaturity and serious mental problems that Melanie may have trouble to overcome.
You think she had serious mental problems? Perhaps, you’re right, but I’m not sure I’d go that far. I’ve seen people who are lonely do things like that—maybe not to the degree she does, but not very far off, either.
I´d say the final sequence seems to suggest that Melanie hands over the responsibility and no longer desperately tries to maintain control.
Despite everything I’ve said, I sort of had the same reaction from the ending. The ending is ambiguous, though. Her letting the wheel go and moving to the backseat could be closer to what Matt described—which is not a healthy way of letting go in my opinion. (I’m having a hard time talking about the ending.)
" I thought of the last bit—since kids often sit in the backseat; plus, she lets go of the wheel, which could mean she wants to give up control to someone or something else.
But I thought she might be getting to a place where she could finally deal with some of her issues…then again, I’m not sure how I would support that with the ending. Maybe the end signifies a kind of reprieve for the character. In this way, the ending doesn’t suggest the character will do anything dramatic—either positively or negatively."
When she first comes to the city, she’s riding in the back seat, so she doesn’t have to be in control, etc., so it’s a sort of visual reference to that specifically (in addition to evoking the parent-child/front seat-back seat -type dynamic that you mentioned in general).
“I thought she might be getting to a place where she could finally deal with some of her issues…”
Oh, I think that too. I don’t think it’s a permanent retreat from the world.
“Maybe the end signifies a kind of reprieve for the character. In this way, the ending doesn’t suggest the character will do anything dramatic—either positively or negatively.”
Yeah.
When she first comes to the city, she’s riding in the back seat, so she doesn’t have to be in control, etc…
Are you sure about that? I’ll have to go back and watch the beginning. The first shot I remember is of Melanie and her old boyfriend in her new apartment.
Oh, I think that too. I don’t think it’s a permanent retreat from the world.
Still, this seems like an odd ending. I guess a part of me is looking for either something more dramatic—either negative or positive. If the ending signifies a reprieve, I’m not sure what to make of the rest of the movie.
@Jazz: If loneliness was Melanie´s basic issue, then she likely wouldn´t push away her colleague Thorsten, but rather allow even a relationship with someone she isn´t particularly attracted to. The true reason for her to reject him is more likely that she is actually seeking a relation of dependence in which she can play the dominant part, and Thorsten is not only more experienced and more capable of things than herself, but would also look through her incapability if he got to know her better. She thus feels the need to keep him at a distance and lie to him in order to at least maintain a balance. To ask him for help would mean a clear confession of weakness and loss of control which amounts to a catastrophe for her. Tina on the other hand more easily relies on her and looks up to her being a teacher, Melanie therefore tries to intensify their relation and create a total dependence. The appearance of Tina´s boyfriend means she might cease to have Tina in her grip, the reason for sending him away is thus predominantly selfish and has more to do with her fearing the relation with Tina may loosen up as soon as she reconciles with him than her actually caring about Tina´s feelings for him. The whole child/backseat metaphor is no doubt a central aspect, since Melanie apparently isn´t able to cope with the responsibilities of a teacher, but doesn´t allow herself to admit her immaturity, thus desperately seeking for other areas where she can have a more thorough control, singling out the friendship with Tina. It´s important that Tina is not a teacher since Melanie´s incapibility is relatively safe from discovery with her, but there doesn´t seem to be much common ground that puts the friendship in a realistic light, also regarding that Tina doesn´t even want to be associated with her in front of other people.
Jazz -
Malanie’s pretty passive-aggressive. Being unable to control the children in her classroom, she over-compensates by trying to control the relationships she has outside of her job. I agree she is very lonely but seems unable to realise (as we do – which makes it so uncomfortable to watch) that her loneliness has come about because of her deep-seated control issues driving those around her away.
I think in the final scene she’s finally letting go and allowing events to take their course instead of actively trying to control everything, and you can clearly see that it’s a tremendous relief for her.
“Are you sure about that?”
Ah, yeah, you’re right. But she has come to the new apartment with not only him, but also her mom and dad, so there’s a kind of implied backseat dynamic to her relationships from the beginning.
“If loneliness was Melanie´s basic issue, then she likely wouldn´t push away her colleague Thorsten, but rather allow even a relationship with someone she isn´t particularly attracted to.”
I don’t think she’s crazy, though. She’s lacking in social skills, and certainly not really completely emotionally mature, but there’s a lot of other stuff going on. There’s he largely unspecified relationship with Bernd, there’s what I assume would be a reluctance to get involved with a co-worker, it also doesn’t really seem that she fully understands Thorsten’s intentions. She’s the idealistic new girl at the school in a new town and I think she really wants to take the proverbial shot at making it “on her own.” And when she starts to struggle, she just gets more entrenched rather than seeking help. Then, with Tina, she sees someone who has the outward appearance of the being the kind of independent, in control woman that Melanie has imagined herself becoming. When it turns out that this isn’t entirely who Tina is, I think she generally tries to befriend and help her, but she doesn’t seem to have a fully developed sense of boundaries.
" I’m not sure what to make of the rest of the movie."
I take is as just a learning experience for her.
I don’t think this film is all that uncomfortable to watch. I believe that really comes form being in somewhat similar situations. Melanie is new and she’s just trying to make friends and do interesting things. I think it’s the people around her that make her actions seem as uncomfortable as they are. I think people in general are unsympathetic with those who find it difficult to fit in and make friends. She obviously lacks the ability to naturally ease herself into relationships and to most and I think people who don’t have these problems would make it out as though she’s the uncomfortable one.
And I think the ending is her realising that she has this problem so she’s letting everything go and allowing things to come naturally.
also, this poster is pretty cool.
Yeah, ^that is hilarious.
Before I respond to Scampi and Apu, I want to say that I mostly agree with Matt’s take on Melanie:
I don’t think she’s crazy, though. She’s lacking in social skills, and certainly not really completely emotionally mature, but there’s a lot of other stuff going on.
Yep.
There’s he largely unspecified relationship with Bernd, there’s what I assume would be a reluctance to get involved with a co-worker, it also doesn’t really seem that she fully understands Thorsten’s intentions.
I’m not sure what she’s feelign with regard to Thorsten. I think Apu’s right when he says that she’s feeling a bit more threatened or insecure around him. In other words, her combination of her pride and insecurity explains the way she behaves around Thorsten. I think this is the reason she keeps her distance—although I wouldn’t rule out reluctance due to just having got over Bernd.
What do people make of her buying the shirts for Bernd? She’s seems to be reaching out to him, on one hand, and, on the other, maybe she’s trying to keep up her appearances (i.e., hiding the real situations with Tina).
She’s the idealistic new girl at the school in a new town and I think she really wants to take the proverbial shot at making it “on her own.” And when she starts to struggle, she just gets more entrenched rather than seeking help.
I agree with this. The entrechment stems from pride—of wanting to do things on her own. (Remember when she calls her mother and her mother automatically assumes that something is wrong. Melanie is take aback and she quickly hides her real intention of calling—which seemed to be seeking support from her mother.)
Then, with Tina, she sees someone who has the outward appearance of the being the kind of independent, in control woman that Melanie has imagined herself becoming. When it turns out that this isn’t entirely who Tina is, I think she generally tries to befriend and help her, but she doesn’t seem to have a fully developed sense of boundaries.
The observation that she’s drawn to Tina because she seems to be an independent woman is interesting and something that had not occurred to me. This sounds right, although doesn’t Melanie first see Tina (in a distraught state) from her apartment? Or does she first meet Tina at the clothing store? (I can’t remember now.) Is Melanie drawn to Tina because Tina seems vulnerable—and therefore not as threatening?
A part of me feels like Melanie is attracted to Tina because Tina is attractive, hip—maybe glamorous. Alternatively, Thorsten is kind of nerdy. Bernt is also seems to be a nerdy-type as well. So the film almost feels like a story about the unpopular girl trying to leave behind her unpopular friends and move up to the popular group. This reading seems a bit silly—given that Melanie is a young adult—but that’s the vibe I got.
(I agree about Melanie not developing boundaries. But that can happen with a lonely person with limited social skills.)
I take is as just a learning experience for her.
When you say that, I think of the film as a slice-of-life movie. Is that how you see it?
“her combination of her pride and insecurity explains the way she behaves around Thorsten.”
that’s a good explanation, I think.
“(Remember when she calls her mother and her mother automatically assumes that something is wrong. Melanie is take aback and she quickly hides her real intention of calling—which seemed to be seeking support from her mother.”
Yeah.
“doesn’t Melanie first see Tina (in a distraught state) from her apartment”
she first sees here through the window having a fight on the phone while she’s talking to . . . Bernd? But then almost immediately she see her in the clothing shop at the mall. So it’s some of both, she seems impressed by the way she presents herself in public, but at the same time, the voyeuristic aspect of their relationship allows her to see her sympathetically. And if Melanie’s taking to Bernd while she’s watching this it, I think it probably makes Tina seem a lot more exciting be virtue of having big emotional drama in her life (one of the things that makes the film interesting is that it suggests that there’s a Tina-movie over there but it stays interested in the Melanie-movie)
“that can happen with a lonely person with limited social skills.”
Yes.
“When you say that, I think of the film as a slice-of-life movie. Is that how you see it?”
Basically, yeah, I think she has this experience and realizes she has an opportunity to change. So it’s not the conventional happy ending where she falls for somebody in the city and lives happily ever after, but it also doesn’t seem like a particularly pessimistic ending either.
@Apu
Tina on the other hand more easily relies on her and looks up to her being a teacher, Melanie therefore tries to intensify their relation and create a total dependence. The appearance of Tina´s boyfriend means she might cease to have Tina in her grip, the reason for sending him away is thus predominantly selfish and has more to do with her fearing the relation with Tina may loosen up as soon as she reconciles with him than her actually caring about Tina´s feelings for him.
Does she want to create total dependence, or does she just want to have a relationship with Tina? You mention that if loneliness were the only factor, Melanie would attempt a relationship with Thorsten. However, as you mentioned, that relationship is unappealing because it may force her to reveal her struggles. Also, that relationship could easily be misinterpreted as something more than platonic, which might not be what Melanie wants. For Melanie, a frienshiop with a man can be more complicated than a friendship with a woman. (Thorsten might be similar to her old boyfriend as well.) These are compelling reasons that Melanie might not want to form a relationship with Thorsten, even if she is lonely.
Now maybe a friendship with Tina seems appealing because Melanie sees that Tina is distraught and that might provide an opening for Melanie—an opening for a typical friendship, not necessarily one based on “dependence.” Melanie doesn’t really strike me as a control-freak or manipulative person—or I think her loneliness, lack of social skills and other factors explain her behavior more than a desire to manipulate and control a relationship.
The appearance of Tina´s boyfriend means she might cease to have Tina in her grip, the reason for sending him away is thus predominantly selfish and has more to do with her fearing the relation with Tina may loosen up as soon as she reconciles with him than her actually caring about Tina´s feelings for him.
But this ignores Tina’s early remark that she hopes Tobias doesn’t show up. At this point, we don’t know what kind of person Tobias is, either. Honestly, I felt like Tobias might have been the abusive type, but by the end of the film, it doesn’t seem that way. It just seems like Tina is a pretty confused person. (By the way, Tina seems fairly troubled or immature as well.) In any event, do you think Melanie shouldn’t have encouraged Tobias to stay away—given what Tina expressed earlier?
The whole child/backseat metaphor is no doubt a central aspect, since Melanie apparently isn´t able to cope with the responsibilities of a teacher, but doesn´t allow herself to admit her immaturity, thus desperately seeking for other areas where she can have a more thorough control, singling out the friendship with Tina.
“Control” seems to be the wrong word—at least for me. I don’t know if she wants to control Tina or their relationship, but I do think a relationship with Tina will be less complex or potentially messy than trying to start a friendship with a man. Also, at one point, doesn’t she try to open up to Tina—confessing that work hasn’t been going so well? If I recall, Tina reacts rather callously, even cruelly—saying something like, “I’m sure you’ll manage. It’s better than being self-employed.”
The more I think about characters, the more I think Tina is the one with more serious psychological issues. (This reminds me of A Woman Under the Influence.)
@Scampi
I agree she is very lonely but seems unable to realise (as we do – which makes it so uncomfortable to watch) that her loneliness has come about because of her deep-seated control issues driving those around her away.
First, see my comments regarding why a friendship with Thorsten may not be so attractive. Also, there’s another scene where she tries to get help from another teacher, but when Thorsten appears, she has to quickly change the subject.
Second, are you saying that Melanie’s control issues drove Tina away? I don’t now if that’s the case. Tina seems pretty flaky and messed up in her own way. Melanie’s behavior can be seen as smothering, but that could be from loneliness and a lack of social skills more than a passive-aggressive, control freak.
@Tomas
She obviously lacks the ability to naturally ease herself into relationships and to most and I think people who don’t have these problems would make it out as though she’s the uncomfortable one.
You don’t think she’s uncomfortable—or unhappy—in the classroom or with Tina? To me, it’s clear that she’s struggling in both areas and it’s making her miserable. She her struggle and suffer is what made me feel so uncomfortable. I felt really bad for her. (The movie poster is a bit painful, too.)
I think it’s worth mentioning that, according to Ade, Melanie’s Swabian accent is another factor that alienates her from her surroundings, as it’s often a source of humor for German speakers. I haven’t the film in a while but I don’t think this was made explicit in any manner, though likely something the students especially picked up on right away.
Good point, Arsaib. I got that from the scene where we first meet Tina and Melanie is trying on a pair of pants. She asks her where she’s from and Melanie say something along the lines of ‘I thought that’s where you were from’ while not having had any other chance of actually knowing. So I thought that there was an issue here with accents that even further set her apart from the rest, but it didn’t really seem to come into play much elsewhere.
Yeah, thanks for that Arsaib.
Jazzaloha
Actually, during and after the film, the thought of a mumblecore movie never came to mind. However, there are similaritities—a) the film features a post-college, middle-upper class twenty-somethings trying to find her way; b) shot in video with low production values; c) the film is basically one long, awkward moment. Boy was it ever! I found this hard to watch, and I almost quit watching. Here are some other thoughts and questions off the top of my head:
>I’d like to discuss the relationship between Melanie’s experience in the classroom and her relationship with Tina. What is the connection between the two, if any? At first I thought the film was going to be realistic portrayal of those Stand and Deliver movies, but by the end I felt like it was about this young woman struggling to make it on her own. What do the two situations tell us about Melanie? Or what was the point of having those two situations?
>*What do people think about the meaning and significance of the title?*when someone is fixated on the details and can’t see the bigger picture. I’m not sure if that really applies to Melanie. Melanie is young and a bit of a push-over, but I felt this stemmed more from her circumstances than a character flaw. (She’s a new teacher, so she doesn’t have a good feel for how to be firm with the students; she’s in a new place without any friends so she’s lonely and desperate for friends.)
>*What do people make of the ending—i.e., Melanie letting go of the wheel and getting into the back seat?* I’m not sure I entirely understand it, but it seems appropriate. Is she letting go of her problems? Has she hit rock bottom and will now bounce back? (That seems to easy.)
>A couple of things stood out for me about the film. First, I thought the film does a good job of showing just enough to give us the important information without slowing down the film or prolonging the viewer’s discomfort. In other words, the director had a good sense of what to show, what not to show and when to cut the scenes.
Second, the film seems keenly aware of the the tropes and predictable developments that could occur in the film. For example, towards the end, I thought the film might have Melanie realize that Thorsten is a decent guy and just pour her heart out to him. But no. The film avoids any cliches, predictable and easy resolutions (another feature that makes me think of mumblecore). At the same time, I didn’t think the film self-consciously avoided these things.
On other thing. I liked the character of Tina and the way she’s protrayed. She’s complex and a bit enigmatic. You could say that she is cruel and manipulative person, but that doesn’t seem quite right. Her behavior could come out of not really knowing what’s she’s doing. (Tobias, her bf, makes a comment like that—“Tina doesn’t know what she wants.”)