out of the two i would say Leone…out of my own choice i say
Sergio Corbucci!
Both are masters of style and, particularly, open space. I just find more substance intertwined withitn Ford’s beautiful landscapes. Ford never gets credit for being quite a subtle filmmaker. Watch the way he handles the relationship between Ethan Edwards and his brother’s wife; It isn’t really even worth mentioning the silhouetted bookends, which are some of the most iconic and profound images in cinema. Leone can create atmosphere like no one, but he can’t reach those peaks of John Ford.
Bob, I realize there’s tons in the vault but the setting and potential of a western is there and I love them. I think there’s still lots of potential to do it right. I realize that Pierce Brosnan one that came out recently, waterfall or something similar like that, wasn’t that good but it’s just like every other genre – if the stars collide and the right talent collides it can be entertaining. I’m not sure what you thought about the remake of 3:10 to Yuma, personally I thought it was great.
Ted: You are right – there is always the opportunity to re-create or revitalize the Western formula. I just saw McCabe & Mrs. Miller again recently, where Altman turned the Western around and made it much more realistic looking. I haven’t seen the re-make of 3:10 to Yuma, but will look for it, if you think it worthwhile. Could anyone re-do High Noon, for example? Sure – if they were true to the original, but made it believable for today’s audience. You need someone with the style of one of the greats, like those mentioned above, to change it into something else – that is, expand upon it. Thanks for making this clear to me.
Bob, no problem, yeah check out 3:10 to Yuma. It has flaws and isn’t a classic but it’s definitely a strong entry into the genre and I gotta say Ben Foster helped create one of the best western villains in history.
Leone, easily
or carpenter :)
I like Ford’s moments of quiet poetry and his (one) eye for landscape. Interesting that he stressed the importance of the human face, given Leone’s extreme Spaghetti western close-ups. The Searchers and Once upon a Time in the West may be the 2 greatest westerns. What i’m not keen on with Ford is some of his childish brawling knockabout humour, (ok it may help with pace variation, whether giving respite from tension or striking a balance with gentler lyrical moments) and his nostalgic sentimentality for an era of genocide, seen mainly from the viewpoint of the genocidal. That isn’t to say there’s no element of critique or interesting questions thrown up over civilisation v savagery/ the wilderness, as in The Searchers, but too often for my taste his sympathies lie more with the cavalry, or the comforting charms of the old south (Judge Priest).
More than anyone Ford created the view of the old West that’s had most currency, even with the revisions of Leone and Peckinpah and others. He printed the legend -though ironically The Man who Shot Liberty Valance could be interpreted as subverting such legend over historical fact, as much as endorsing it.
Nice thoughts Kenji….. Ford was a mass of broiling contradictions and this spills over into his work. A mean human being with a sentimental streak, attracted to the military and booze. Not such an unusual mix, many a martinet bully will cry over something to do with his kids, but not many have such a strong artistic streak. Ford was part bully part pseudo-Irish poet. Some of his stuff is of it’s time and had dated badly, and most directors from that era suffer that, but so much is timeless. I watched ‘Prisoner Of Shark Island’ last year and found a film so rich I could have been watching a Renoir. This is a film that tanked at the time with the public and critics, is never mentioned in his top tier and it’s stunning and eerily relevant to todays terrorism focused times. Ford astrides cinema like a colossus, Leone walks between his legs and peers about.
Useful comments too, Musycks. I saw Prisoner of Shark Island years ago and enjoyed it,, but i would really need to see it again, refresh my memory.
Is it just me or are most of those on the Ford side giving reasons and those in the Leone camp not?
I’d also love to see an age breakdown as Leone is so much closer to a contemporary aesthetic and Wayne is almost Elvis-like in the associated baggage to plow through to understand at the center of so many Ford films. Not that I expect everyone to follow my path, but in my case it took decades to get Ford. Again it’s almost belittling to Leone to compare him in a contest I feel he’s doomed to lose, but skipping the more popular films of both where are Leone’s They Were Expendable and Young Mr. Lincoln (or even Mister Roberts if you give Ford primary credit)?
I thought this page had a great summary of Westerns, from the GREAT TRAIN ROBBERY (1903) to the near-present, which shows how the genre has been central to the success Hollywood for most of the past 100 years. I thought the sections on “cult westerns” and Sam Peckinpah to be especially appropriate.
http://www.filmsite.org/westernfilms.html
Leone’s films are great, but they are just so…formalist? Is that right? Leone western = a desert, a gunfighter, twangy guitars, close ups of faces, etc. It all seems so superficial sometimes. Ford was working with American mythology, folklore, emotions, and conciseness while Leone only used the most basic, biggest pieces of the myths. But…Leone wasn’t an American so what do you expect. While they both directed westerns, the Italian western is a very different animal than the American western. Two different fruits. For the sake of the thread, my money is with Ford, but the comparison isn’t that great.
However, Leone did direct Henry Fonda as one of the meanest villains I’ve ever seen in Once Upon A Time In The West. I must give credit for that
Though I love both them, you’ve got to at least try to look at them objectively.
Ford directed more films in his career and had to survive the coming of sound and the colour revolution along with changes in society. And he was able to adapt to those conditions that were out of his control.
So on that basis, I’d say John Ford. But that doesn’t mean Leone is not a great auteur.
This is a hard line to draw but if I hand to step to one side it would Be Leone. Ford is amazing, the Searchers never gets old but when I crave a real dirty western with spit and gunpowder I turn Italian.
While Eastwood’s work with westerns is indeed top shelf I believe his are much deeper then other directors and don’t hold the same action or style as John or Sergio.
Leone will always have my heart when it comes to Western.
I think Leone’s fillms have aged much better, although its hard to discredit the impact that Ford had on the art of cinema. He inspired a lot of directors, kurosawa, being one of them.
Ford directed about 84 films between 1917 and 1966, including The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance, The Searchers, My Darling Clementine and Stagecoach. Leone directed seven films between 1961 and 1984.including Once Upon a Time in the West and the Eastwood trilogy. Whatever one’s personal tastes are, it is surely no contest.
come on Le Feu Follet, maybe the original question actually meant…
The Western: Ford or Leone? Which was the better director of Italian westerns of the 60’s & 70’s…..
[/snark]
Sergio Leone made some of the worst movies I’ve ever seen. How did all of his characters manage to look like they were sculpted out of shit? Slow moving, aimless, tension-free, John Ford is the man who created the American west as we know it. I’d take George Roy Hill, Jodorowski, Sam Peckinpah, Clint Eastwood, James Mangold, shit I’d take Giulo Questi and Lucio Fulci over Sergio Leone.
My heart is there Tom. Leone rocks when it comes to Westerns
Oh, Scout, come on…
Sorry, I have a bit of a thing against Leone. I’m a big wet blanket, so, just ignore me and keep on keepin’ on with your Leone love. I’ll bow out now.
Leone should have been a cinematographer for Peckinpah,while Ford’s greatest accomplishment wasn’t a western but rather “Grapes of Wrath”,he seems to over simplify American history in his westerns.
Ford offered films which depicted the west as it could very well have been: tedious, big and dry, tedious, and bland. Leone offered a glamorous, consistently violent, and interesting body of western works. It’s not unlike police dramas: do you want the realistic, paperwork-filled days of law enforcement, or do you want non-stop action?
The only westerns I like are John Fords. No Hawks, Walsh and not to mention Leone can compete with him. And he waqs always much more than a genre director. Even the modernisation of the western genre is more or less an influence by Ford. Still up today, TWO RODE TOGETHER seems to me the most modern western.
Rudiger, have you ever seen any of Tourneur’s westerns? I’d be curious to know what you think of them since he’s one of the few directors other than Ford to really focus on the world the protagonist moves in more than on confrontation.
As to the question, Ford is, to my mind the far superior director. I like The Good, the Bad and the Ugly and Once Upon a Time in the West quite a bit, but they are greatly simplified visions compared to the broader vision of Ford. Leone is basically an overamped Anthony Mann to my mind. Which can be exciting enough cinematically, but I prefer Mann’s human scale moral complexity to Leone’s Nietzschian supermen.
@GREG X
No I haven´t seen any of Tourneurs western, just three of his phantastic films, CATPEOPLE etc, which I like a lot.
Generally I have (excerpt with Ford) problems with this genre. Anyway when I come across a Tourneur western, I will try it.
Peckinpah!!
leone
Bob Stutsman
Ted: “Hopefully another movie is never made.” Well, I wouldn’t go that far… I grew up with Westerns – being an old person – when they were virtually everywhere on the TV and in films in the 50’s and early 60’s. I have seen enough, is what I should have made clear. Sure, it could be used by others to do something new, but it is not a genre that interests me personally anymore – just like I have said recently about gangster films. One can reach the saturation point with any film genre, as things tend to go in cycles, but if Westerns work for you, so be it. I guess it is OK for a few more films to be made now, too, eh?