Videogame Hierarchies: Will Videogames become High Art?
Its sets VG to art and then asks how can VG become high art
That’s the primary mistake of the whole thread. You can’t presume it to be Art when you haven’t given at least one reason as to why it SHOULD be Art. The artist designs but the audience doesn’t challenge their intellectual process. They play first, they experience it and at the same time, they “admire graphics”.
Where is the Food for Thought though?
What do you learn by this process?
Where are the questions it supposedly “poses”?
Where is the Philosophy in Gaming?
So videogames by “being Art” are a new form of Art where the audience can manipulate what the Artist did?
That’s insulting to the mutual, intellectual exchange the artist and the audience have altogether. That’s insulting to the artist / author / composer in the first place.
You didn’t read the OP then?
The OP is not re-tread of VG vs art.
Its sets VG to art and then asks how can VG become high art, referencing the same process as was applied to film.
well the op failed then in deciding prematurely that video games ARE art… that is a conversation that must take place (as you can see) before any discussion of video games AS art takes place
Perception: a philosophical condition of discussing and defining environments, thoughts and contrasting definitions. Therefore, perception = philosophy = verbal thinking and communication.
Ancient Greek or did you just make that up?
The most important part from the wiki: outside conscious awareness
Perception depends on complex functions of the nervous system, but subjectively seems mostly effortless because this processing happens outside conscious awareness.
Ancient Greek? Ancient Greeks are for people who don’t want to accept that Greece has created musical, literature and cinematic MASTERPIECES that most will neither accept nor care to search in the first place.
(hint hint, ^Art that will slowly wither and vanquish from the minds of children who think video-GAMES are Art)
If I were to copy Ancient Greece, I’d have copied Epicurus, Sappho, Hypatia and Hermes Trismegistus and only!
Intellectual stimulation beats anti-theoretical activities because perception through motion still requires Intellect! So you touch, move, kick but without Philosophy, you have nothing. You’re a fucking machine.
Do you trust Wikipedia so much Peabody? I thought you weren’t such a sheep…
well the op failed then in deciding prematurely that video games ARE art… that is a conversation that must take place (as you can see) before any discussion of video games AS art takes place
The OP is a hypothetical – the conversation did take place on another thread.
^ We’re trying to be rational here, why do we need hypotheses?
Even if we were to be hypothetical, none replied to my questions in the previous pages. Can you reply to those?
Where is the Food for Thought though?
What do you learn by this process?
Where are the questions it supposedly “poses”?
Where is the Philosophy in Gaming?
Those are good questions, but not relevant to this thread.
Why don’t you boot up that thread and ask there.
^ Not relevant? “Good” questions"? Not relevant is your “attempt” to presume video-GAMES are Art. You are the one who has created such a moronic thread by presuming them as Art when you haven’t answered these questions beforehand. Good is when you drink a soft-drink, those questions are of utmost importance to comprehend the “gaming” medium.
I won’t start a thread ever again on this site and I’ve stated my reasons on my profile. If you want to answer these questions, do so on this very thread which you committed one of the highest insults a pseudo-intellectual can do: completely erase from his / her head what Art IS!!!
I demand a reply to these questions and please be articulate and please find better examples.
Videogaming Interactivity is like playing volleyball: nothing artistic about it.
Don’t know if this has been linked to in the, uh, 12 pages created in two days on this subject, but Clint “Farcry 2” Hocking has some interesting thoughts on his blog here.
@ Daniel Kasman
Thanks for shining some light into the dimness.
The source for this thread was actually this article posted by KJ:
Why video games are indeed Art
To add some further light onto the discussion, in more ways than one, anyone interested in other ways interactivity, architecture and immersive environments can be used in art should look at the works of James Terrell who is an artist that deals with these very ideas in a more traditional museum setting.
A short video about him can be found here
A flickr page with images of more of his work here
And another video showing interaction with the work here
A link page with more info on Turrell and his works can be found here
His work in these areas is nothing short of astonishing, and should broaden some horizons on the areas we’ve been talking about and, by inference, add some perspective on how similar ideas about art can be brought into play in the area of video games.
Oh, and, yes, thanks for the link Daniel, he says things in a much more concise fashion than I was able to do.
Far Cry 2 is a brutally violent game, and damned entertaining. It also provides space for thinking about the armed conflict that the game portrays and for quite exciting explorations of the jungle and desert environments.
Of course, Daniel, thanks to that Hocking link, you have insured that this thread will continue for another 50 pages!
The bottomline is that, in this thread alone, but also in your history posting here Dimitris, you have acted like you alone get to define any and all terms-what is art, and what can be art. Your arrogance may endear you to some, but arrogance is not a replacement for intelligence.
In this thread, you have made statements that in order for something to be art, something must be learned from it-but this is your own conception. Great artists can make great art just for fun, although videogames are and can be so much more than that.
Great artists can make great art just for fun
Name 10.
although videogames are and can be so much more than that.
People are still unaware of the majority the histories and cultures and arts of with world because of the despicable arrogance of people of your kind Dope Fiend Jason who dare to prioritize GAMES over events and cultural elements that could enrich all of your lives. You may laugh at Romanian masterpieces in cinema or Greek masterpieces in 20th century poetry but to think we could prioritize a field of GAMES over a cultural background that’s still unknown to MANY across the globe is insulting, indecent and narrow-minded to say the least. It increases the importance of GAMES over Art.
Gamers can do as they please but please, don’t pollute Art with your pointless defense, especially from an individual who’s politically ignorant and culturally academic.
also funny how “the remote viewer” keeps screaming about people not contributing anything to the conversation when all he does is insult other posters for their opinions without deigning to explain how and why he disagrees… providing nothing useful for his argument
Actually, I have done so several times. Meanwhile, you continue to be needlessly disruptive, like a troll.
The name doesn’t require quotation marks, though I realize you’re only seeking to mock and obstruct conversation. Of course I must seem like a “rabid fanboy” to you, because I actually have views (which I’ve expressed) while you do nothing but attempt to slander me by twisting petty arguments. You are a pathetic internet troll and nothing more.
Let’s stay on topic, all, thanks.
Chess and Go have been around for thousands of years. They have been played by some of the greateast minds in history. They areconsidered to be the most intellectually challenging games ever devised.
Are they Art? No they are not. They are games. Nothing wrong with Chess or Go. It is just that they are not art.
Does that makes Chess and Go trivial? Of course not. People will continue to play them for thousands of years.
They are part of our culture even if they are not Art.
So why do people who design and play VG feel they have to be vindicated by VG being considerd an art form?
Francisco, your question makes a leap from games like chess (which is considered to be an art by some of its more devoted players) to videogames, which are a hybrid media drawing narrative tools from not just games (which for the sake of your argument we can assume are simply “not art” despite their narrative and philosophical potential), but also (as I’ve already said) visual arts, music, and the influence of cinema, prose, comics, etc. The answer to the question is basically self-evident. Mind you, this is totally ignoring all the ranting about “High Art” from people who like to build straw men to draw assumptions about others’ lack of culture or intellect (because obviously the recognition that even a game can function as art must preclude one from a full understanding and appreciation of poetry, music, history, philosophy, et al)…
Chess was not Art even when Duchamp played it. Not even Duchamp claimed it to be either.
^ But Francisco….Duchamp was an artist, not a PLAYER. There is a difference dude, mister / miss Remote Viewer will probably inform you about this as well…ho ho ho :P
(because obviously the recognition that even a game can function as art must preclude one from a full understanding and appreciation of poetry, music, history, philosophy, et al)
Art is a vast encyclopedia of KNOWLEDGE. The fact that more than half of this knowledge isn’t more well-known is one more reason enough to preserve it through LEARNING.
Where is the knowledge in videogames?
Can you please reply to at least one of my questions above Remote Viewer since you didn’t have the decency to reply one of my earlier ones?
Something that needs to be considered here:
Most video game designers do not consider themselves artists. The only ones that come to mind are indie darlings like John Blow and Jason Rohrer, and even then I’m just guessing. The big guys like Miyamoto and Kojima, as far as I know, consider themselves entertainers, though looking at the stuff Miyamoto’s been creating recently (Wii Fit, Wii Music, etc), I think it’s fair to say he wants to experiment in other avenues.
Psahos, I’m not trying to give priority to anything.
Torres, if you can’t distinguish the difference between a game in which you moves pieces around on a board and engage in mental competition, and an interactive form of storytelling on a Playstation that allows you to explore diverse environments created by visual artist, and and unravel plots written by literary artists, while pondering the intellectual themes put forth in the writing; I don’t know what to tell you. Keep watching movies and doing your thing, but ‘videogames’ are going to continue to move forward and become more mature.
but ‘videogames’ are going to continue to move forward and become more mature.
People have no idea about who Kazantzakis and Kadere and Xinjian are in literature and you’re asking people to what…appreciate the “literary artists” of I don’t know…Metal Gear Solid or Pokemon or Shadow of the Colossus? Where’s the knowledge there Dope Fiend Jason?
Keep watching movies and doing your thing, but ‘videogames’ are going to continue to move forward and become more mature.
LOL!!!! You seem genuinely hurt!
a clear false equivalency between chess and Fallout. One is a sport almost, there other is a piece of interactive media.
^ I see….so chess is a sport, so what is Trivial Pursuit? A fancy? What if board game players are to be insulted?
I don’t understand, Dimitris (and I readily admit I’ve only read this page of the discussion)—are you saying video games are without meaning? Because if they contain meaning they can contain knowledge. The MGS series has a very pointed and deliberate take on the way the world works, for example, expressed both as narrative and as gameplay.
Oh, and I suppose there’s Fumito Ueda, though he seems to fill his own niche. He certainly seems intent on creating emotional responses in gamers, so I guess that’s something.
Here’s a pretty good read: http://www.insertcredit.com/reviews/wanda/
^
^Technocratic tendencies like MGS along with controlled (by the player) bloodshed aren’t knowledgeable information, they’re Hollywood bonanza of the highest order of ENTERTAINMENT.
If you think MGS Daniel should be preserved when not even half of the people of this world know of Indian cinema and Indian music, then you’re as blind as the rest of the GAMERS of this thread and the supporters of this video-GAME experience.
Robert W Peabody III
@floserber I shared a link nobody seemed to see few pages ago about the slides of Carsten Höller.
I can’t find the link.
It is interesting that the plastic arts are attempting to go interactive.