Would you like to start and define what you find as “the obvious”?
Anything from previous threads bottom right side
When I went through my Wong Kar-wai phase a few years ago, I came away with a similar opinion to Robert’s. There’s plenty of style in his films – they’re all pretty and fun to look at – but there doesn’t seem to be much else. After a few films, I lost interest. He seems to have decent instincts, and could probably make some killer music videos, but his features come off as mere style exercises.
Okay, thanks for the link to the threads.
So, I gather you’ve seen In the Mood For Love, 2046, and My Blueberry Nights. (Didn’t see you mention the fourth film you’ve seen.) And based on those, I would for the most part agree with you that there is a lot of style without a clear, as you put it, concept that he is asking you to struggle with.
I’m not trying to convince you either way as to the merits of his films, but I do see much more than just the style. His string of films from 1991 – 1997 (Days of Being Wild, Chungking Express, Ashes of Time, Fallen Angels and Happy Together) is, for me, a pretty remarkable run. I find In the Mood For Love and 2046 are strong stylistic expressions of themes and ideas he explored earlier, but maybe the themes/ideas themselves do not come across in these films when taken alone (I’ll never know because of the order in which I’ve viewed WKW’s films).
I highly encourage you to watch his earlier films before writing him off. Not only are they strong on their own, but also provide context for the later ones. I find it difficult to take films (or any artworks, for that matter) on their own as a sort of isolated entity. If you still think he’s only doing “the obvious” after that, then me saying what I think he is saying will likely not convince you. (I’d still be willing to try though, so come back after seeing more and let us know what you think.)
“The Asian film makers that went on from the malaise and an example of their films:”
first of all,why do most Western individuals prefer to name Eastern Asian filmmakers as a primary cinematic culture,don’t you all know that India,Iran and Syria are also parts of Asia????
“He seems to have decent instincts, and could probably make some killer music videos, but his features come off as mere style exercises.”
uummm,that’s not an argument…it’s just a repetitive reaction against “style”.
Chungking Express = Desperately Seeking Susan without the plot
I could see an auteur changing over time – getting watered down or overworking an original theme – but usually that is due to the commercial demands of great success.
Nonetheless, if you have seen his early work and this is what I am asking – what is the concept (early films) that Wong Kar-wai is asking one to struggle with?
It wasn’t meant as a complete list – it was the exemplify the topic – to put Wong in context without getting too theme-atic. If you no know the Asian films listed, they are very stylized but also have a concept behind the style.
You can add to the list other cinematic cultures without being confrontational
I’d be curious who you would add from India, Iran and Syria.
Alright, well this is exactly what I was trying to avoid: me just saying what concept(s) I think he is asking one to struggle with and then opening it up to a discourse in which all parties are not on the same page in terms of what they have seen (seems to happen quite often on this site, no?). If I say his films seem to me to be about missed connections, alienation, isolation, the importance of timing, openness with one’s surroundings, spontaneity, love/lust, etc. and you do not agree based on what you have seen, it seems we have both just wasted each other’s time.
Hence, why I recommended doing the leg work yourself. If from your first glimpses into his body of work, that doesn’t seem worth it, then so be it (why start this thread then?). And if it does seem worth it to invest more time into, then go for it and come to your own conclusions. And please do come back and share those conclusions.
Forums are rarely about genuine discussion, but rather a shooting down of one another’s views (which I play into at times, like anyone else). Just trying to avoid that this time around. What is life without learning from one’s mistakes, right?
“I’d be curious who you would add from India, Iran and Syria.”
pardon me but it often occurs to most threads regards to Asian cinema that plenty of individuals hardly recognize other countries beyond the East as parts of the Asian continent,and it really pisses me off when they do so,so i apologize if i misinterpreted his time..
as for Wong..yes,i’ll agree with Dreams,it’s best to glare his films in a less strict manner,why should all movies have a concept?
do Xenakis or Villa-Lobos or Cage have concepts in their musical compositions?it’s all about their improvisational and (sometimes) experimental method of luring into their art..
Muratova and Watkins also describe their narratives with an alluring “style”,perhaps not as incoherent as Wong’s but visually sumptuous all the same…
I’ve only seen In the Mood for Love and My Blueberry Nights and I was completely unimpressed with both. I feel like a main reason cinephiles love him is because he’s not Hollywood. But if a director from Hollywood made those films, cinephiles would lambast him.
To me, he’s the Luc Besson of the East.
(why start this thread then?)
Here’s why I opened the thread:
….opening it up to a discourse in which all parties are not on the same page in terms of what they have seen…
If everyone is on the same page there is no need for a forum, no?
The thread is somewhat film specific because In the Mood For Love is what I was called out for – I am not in the same page with his other films either.
This was suggested by film scholar, Gina Marchetti: “her carry-out pail eloquently tells a poignant story of loneliness, abandonment, isolation, and exile.”
I missed that entirely – I was thinking about when I started out I had to brown-bag it to work because I had no money.
I think that imagery is weak….. Marchetti was grasping for a meaning.
If everyone is on the same page in terms of background knowledge (films seen — which is how I meant it), then there is definitely still a need for a forum. On the same page in terms of opinion, then of course not.
So, if the thread is film-specific and one step further, a critic’s-grasping-for-meaning-specific, then we should probably let this thread die in silence.
If people want to talk about the films themselves or the filmmakers, let’s have at it.
@ Dimitris why should all movies have a concept?
Uh… per above, I wanted the thread to cover it from this POV:
I want to work with James Schamus’
Carl Theodor Dreyer’s Gertrud: the moving word
The way I read Schamus: art makes the beholder struggle with a concept – that is what separates art from entertainment
Not all movies do have a concept….if his don’t, that would be an insight
“To me, he’s the Luc Besson of the East.”
said by the person who thinks Baader Chicken Complex is one of the best movies of the decade…sigh…
So, if the thread is film-specific and one step further, a critic’s-grasping-for-meaning-specific, then we should probably let this thread die in silence.
Why? Marchetti is a reference point mirroring some of the things you listed.
Dimitris is always interested in the greater cinematic Diaspora so let me use
La Ciénaga 2001 DIR Lucrecia Martel as an example of a concept beyond the literal reading of the film – which is what the marketing department includes with the disk.
While I watched the film I was thinking about how they needed an outside locus of control in their lives. After the film, I noticed at the end of her director’s statement something I reformulated into:
Without traditions to support it, an unconscious society pleads for fascism.
The film has a concept beyond a literal reading – as Martel said in an interview:
Martel wants to believe that more than decadence, her film is about having no social safety net. She describes Argentina: “Solidarity has been broken into millions of pieces since the 60s right on up until the present. I feel that the characters are abandoned. I feel that way and extend it to humanity. The film is not about what is happening in Salta; it’s about this loss of protection that could happen anywhere.
“Martel”:http://www.austinfilm.org/Page.aspx?pid=330
Time to watch a film !
Dimitris – I wasn’t trying to postulate an argument. I was giving my opinion of his work. It’s been too long, honestly, for me to form any type of cutting argument against him. And, his films don’t really interest me enough to do that anyway. I can see why others like him, and I don’t fault anyone for it. But, the films I’ve seen seem like exteneded music videos, which is cool if that’s what you’re into.
Gorgeous to look at. Irresistibly seductive, even. ITMFL ultimately is indolent romanticism- smoking in the rain; seductive tango music on the s/t; Maggie Cheung’s delectable derriere in those dresses (she and Monica Bellucci have asses made for clinging dresses); Tony Leung’s hair and clothes; Nat King Cole. Nothing too troubling here. Their disaffected air is supposed to read 1962, but really, they are utterly contemporary. Did anyone really believe that woman worked in a shipping office? I had a problem with that. At the time of the events of the story, Mao had taken control of the mainland about a dozen years earlier. Hong Kong was still a British colony. What did we learn/see about any of that? What is to be made of the fact that these two did not hit the sheets? There was nothing preventing them. It, like a lot in this movie, was an affectation. a convenience. But I still enjoyed looking it at.
WKW was working up to sex in 2046.
All that languorous lolling about on beds, staring off into the distance, smoking. That’s what you do after you’re done fucking. The entire movie was directed like that- in a post-sex haze.
“But, the films I’ve seen seem like exteneded music videos, which is cool if that’s what you’re into.”
you clearly don’t know how music videos look like..
and at least he’s better than a mother-fucking Clint Eastwood…
Music video, you say? Six Days WKW & DJ Shadow.
Oh, I didn’t realize this was a thread about Clint Eastwood. Shoot! How will I compare these two directors? Oh, wait, they do completely different things!
WKW could at least do a Norah Jones video, right?
“Oh, wait, they do completely different things!”
they make moving pictures,don’t they?
unless of course i cannot compare Tom Clancy and Alain Robbe-Grillet now,huh?
Tom Clancy and Alain Robbe-Grillet. Two names I never expected to see linked in a sentence.
Robert W Peabody III,
I don’t think your question even means anything.
“What (insert director’s name) beyond the obvious?”
I think you could pose this question about any director and the answer would be the same.
What is Bresson saying beyond the obvious?
What is Tarkovsky saying beyond the obvious?
What is Hitcock saying beyond the obvious?
What is Coppola saying beyond the obvious?
The main reason we respect these artist is because they are good at making fear, insanity, ambition, lust, etc, seem obvious.
“What is Lucrecia Martel saying beyond the obvious?”
Martel wants to believe that more than decadence, her film is about having no social safety net. She describes Argentina: “Solidarity has been broken into millions of pieces since the 60s right on up until the present. I feel that the characters are abandoned. I feel that way and extend it to humanity. The film is not about what is happening in Salta; it’s about this loss of protection that could happen anywhere.
Yeah, but then by you saying it it becomes obvious. And that is why you place you attention in that film.
What is Bresson saying beyond the obvious?
In his Notes on the Cinematographer (Quartet, London, 1986), Bresson stresses that his films’ components in themselves (shots, movements, etc.) are inefficacious, that it’s always a film’s totality that produces the meaning. The ellipses? – The stuff that seeps through the cracks in the narrative is golden. As a viewer, to suddenly be confronted by a new event or problem, without the linear line or gradual build-up to it presented also, means to be lost at sea momentarily, and you have to quickly assimilate that event. And you assimilate it by putting yourself in the character’s soul, and feeling the full force of that new event, feeling it afresh, in its essence. Bresson presents such (turns of) events as if they were happening to you – what a trick!
Robert W Peabody III
Neil McCauley’s Cooler Brother questioned the veracity on my rating of this film:
In the Mood for Love (2000) Vacuous: 1 : emptied of or lacking content 2 : marked by lack of ideas or intelligence : stupid, inane
To start:
The late 90’s were a period on the cusp of great wealth creation without the usual war necessary to do so. Although there was great hope, artistically there was a post-modern malaise and I think his films represent that malaise. I have seen four of Wong Kar-wai’s work and his films have a style. 2046 is the film I found most favor with and My Blueberry Nights 2007 is the one that, although the consensus sees as bad, isn’t really a departure from his early work in terms of a concept or lack of a concept.
The Asian film makers that went on from the malaise and an example of their films:
DIR Anh Hung Tran The Vertical Ray of the Sun (2000)
DIR Tsai Ming-liang What Time is it There? (2001)
DIR Apichatpong Weerasethakul Syndromes and a Century 2006
DIR Hirokazu Kore-Eda Maborosi No Hıkari (1995) (early I know)
I want to work with James Schamus’
Carl Theodor Dreyer’s Gertrud: the moving word
The way I read Schamus: art makes the beholder struggle with a concept – that is what separates art from entertainment
After four films, I don’t see the concept that Wong Kar-wai is asking me struggle with. What is Wong Kar-wai saying beyond the obvious?