@ floserber
There was no comparison, it was a statement of fact.
I appreciate about Western culture that it is driven by progress.
I appreciate about Eastern culture its respect for the past.
Those things are not mutually exclusive.
Your example merely represents a clash of cultures. That islander now wears blue jeans and listens to a transistor radio to get the weather forecast.
Cultures change, providing a better world for those who adapt. Thus it is not about something static such as a culture being “better”, but about adaptation –
i.e. progress, change
There is no such thing as a “Western culture” just as there’s no such thing as a “Eastern culture”. If you meant that American culture is driven by progress, it is not so much it is shunning its past in favor of progress as the fact that it doesn’t have much of a distinct, unified cultural past to begin with.
Whoa, I never said I PREFERRED Japanese culture! I said I watch mostly American classic movies. However, I find them to be MORE APPRECIATED abroad.
Yeah, I was shocked too. NYC was a huge let down for me. Art school there was not an oasis of open mildness and appreciation, it was closed minded and hellish, geared towards making art into commodity. I met a few good people, but the overall atmosphere was stifling. NYC is great if you want to be Jeff Koons, not so great if you want to be something more subtle and traditional.
I like classic American movies. A lot. I’m highly depressed by the fact that the majority of Americans are oblivious and close minded out it, that’s all.
People in Japan are polite. If I tell them I like black and white movies, they are interested to know why. Even if they are just making small talk, polite conversation, at least they make an effort to ask!!! In the States, the usual response is blank stare followed by “Ohhhh….OK. Umm…” or as I got in university, “Well, that kind of art is irrelevant to our problems TODAY. It’s not forward thinking!”. That’s my point.
Bottom line, I’m not tooting the horn of culture other than the USA (the American classics are my personal faves!), I’m just saying I’m surprised by how much more polite and less predetermined to judge things people here are about it!
Columbiatch, thank you. My points exactly.
No problem Anastasia, but I disagree with your point about the lack of appreciation for art in NYC. NYC has a large population, from my experiences I think there is considerable appreciation of cinema. Just look at all the art house cinemas and specialty venues like the Film Society at Lincoln Center, Anthology Film Archives, Museum of Modern Art, Brooklyn Academy of Music, etc. What other city in the US can boast such cinematic riches? Which other city can sell out tickets to screenings of A Brighter Summer Day, Zerkalo, and Bruce Conner retrospectives?
@ columbiatch it doesn’t have much of a unified cultural past to begin with
I give you a personal example. I recently learned that I am eligible to be a member of Society of the Cincinnati
If this were Japan, this membership might be very important. The reality here is that most of the population of this country arrived after the revolutionary war. The immigrant migrations diluted the importance of that part of our past.
It doesn’t bother me in the least, I would rather live in the future than the past.
Columbiatch, I just found that it wasn’t old enough for me. Yes, NYC is great for lovers of Warhol, the moderns. But if you like it older like myself, then its a terrible place. Much to my dismay…
However, yes, BAM and a few other places in NYC are decent. I’m just saying the greedy, “it has to been new” attitude was a bit too much for me there. I think there are lots of film buffs in NYC. However, the school I went to and the places I worked constantly turned up their noses at me for liking classic things.
I guess classic America cinema is a bit of a vortex, it’s not as “arty” as Fellini or Anger, but its not mainstream. We classic movie fans are stuck in the middle.
I mean, let’s face it, movies like Wuthering Heights (1939) aren’t artistically ambitious, and they’re a bit melodramatic and its not like the editing or cinematography is revolutionary, but as a whole its a good film, good acting, the CRAFT of the filmmaking is excellent. The craft and the details are lovingly made. But, yeah, does it have some deep political message? Is it trying to present and bring forth some new point? Nope.
It’s not the kind of thing NYC isn’t as interested in, it has to be EDGY, new, strange, subversive, controversial, weird, extreme, in a sense….
If people want to live in the future, hey, no problem. But those of us who deeply love the past, the States is seriously the wrong place to be. What bothers me about the States is that they get so violently angry about people who like the past, like HEY, THAT’S NOT PROGRESSIVE, why do you like that OLD stuff? Jeez, it’s like being a communist.
Anastasia, it feels like you didn’t meet the right people to encourage you and your art in New York, and that’s caused some resentment for the city and its culture. Also, not sure if I agree with your assessment that everyone here wants the “new” always: The Rules of the Game was almost sold out at BAM two weeks ago.
Anastasia
Yes – Asian culture has that respect thingy going on.
I was interviewing a Chinese woman the other day and when I finished I thanked her and bowed.
She smiled and bowed.
It was the only time during the process that she smiled.
I bet she told her husband: today white-devil showed respect for ancestors
We shouldn’t dwell too much in the past (and history doesn’t always repeat). Embrace the present and the future because a. you have no choice and b. you can do something to make a difference…
All this talk about the past reminds me of this segment from The Daily Show.
I repeat, there is a Chinese culture (a very diverse one at that), Japanese culture, Indian culture, Korean culture, etc, but there is no such thing as an Asian culture. There may be cultural influences among them, and thus they change over time, but there is no pan-Asian culture just like there is no European culture or African culture. Come on, you don’t have to be an anthropologist to know that.
Anastasia: MoMa, BAM, Film Forum, and even Anthology often show older Hollywood films and from other countries. There was a Hawks retrospective a year ago, a Nick Ray and Kurosawa retrospective a few months ago, and (like Dequinix mentioned) a Renoir retrospective just a month ago.
The movie studios are producing the films that the people want to see, which is why they continue to break records. Also, it can be said that we have nobody of the same talent as Ford, Hawkes, Curtiz, Wilder, who can make an adult film that isn’t too artsy or obscure.
The films in America today that are not big studio movies are usually dull, obscure, strange, and usually lack a strong plot.
I’m not against profit, but I do think the “first weekend blockbuster” phenomenon is ridiculous. I liked how Batman Begins made money. It made money over time and word of mouth. After the brutal Batman and Robin sequel there wasn’t going to be a big box office pull for a reboot but because it left people satisfied with the film it made money in the theatre over weeks. People are not trying to market films as something with lasting value in the theatre also because there is a home video market where many movies (like Master and Commander) can find a home and also to recoup losses. There is also piracy that is going on so having the big first weekend becomes more needed. Without profits somewhere there won’t be the odd risk down the line. The best way to support movies you love is buying tickets in art house cinemas and buying Blu-rays/DVDs.
“The films in America today that are not big studio movies are usually dull, obscure, strange, and usually lack a strong plot.”
That’s part of the problem. American indie cinema has failed to impress me. Much of it is very much the wink-wink nudge-nudge Manhattanite carefree hipster perspective. Uninspiring as hell, and completely alienating to those who are not as comfortable.
@Robert Peabody; is Western culture really driven by progress? I don’t see destroying the world (while so many millions still die of preventable hunger and curable diseases) as progress. Scientific and technological advances are one thing, progress another. Same old bigotry, prejudice, nationalism, warfare, environmental destruction, inequality, superstition, religious fundamentalism, violence, attitudes which entrap rather than liberate and enlighten. In many countries there has been social progress, but in others regression. I think capitalism is driven by the desire for maximum profits through the marketing and sale of products that are disposable and often completely unnecessary. And this is of course linked to what is wrong with modern US cinema
tldr
“Anastasia
Yes – Asian culture has that respect thingy going on.
I was interviewing a Chinese woman the other day and when I finished I thanked her and bowed.
She smiled and bowed.
It was the only time during the process that she smiled.
I bet she told her husband: today white-devil showed respect for ancestors"
what an amazing example of faux-irony and supernatural bigotry.
moreover, would you be saying Iranian and Lebanese culture are Asian as well or is Asian for you the Japano-Chinese side of that continent and only?
Apparently all of NYC wants to follow one mold of thought because of one art school. Funny considering there are dozens of exhibits all across the city that represent a wide variety of taste. All of the modern art scene in NYC is not like the movie (Untitled).
In America, you also have a lot of people who are arrogant about their knowledge of film because they’ve seen Fight Club and Pulp Fiction. They can be even more irritating than the regular sheeple.
@ Kenji Consumerism is a bad thing – that isn’t progress. The good things that progress brings (science, medicine, free time) require wealth creation.
Btw, when one brags about their extensive DVD collection that is consumerist – so let’s not be hypocritical.
Well D, would you include Lebanon today? I think even now India fits quite nicely in terms of East vs. West.
Did you notice Godard blaming Aristotle:
The technological world in which we live owes everything to Greece. Who invented logic? Aristotle. If this and if that, then this. Logic. It’s what the dominant powers use every day — ensuring that there’s no contradiction whatsoever, that we stay inside of the same logic. Hannah Arendt put it well when she said that logic leads to totalitarianism.
Folks, progress doesn’t kill people, people kill people.
“Did you notice Godard blaming Aristotle:”
who fucks Aristotle anyway? and Arendt is no better either, so Godard better shut his silly mouth since his knowledge is still limited to Western-style philosophies.
“Well D, would you include Lebanon today? I think even now India fits quite nicely in terms of East vs. West.”
the problem isn’t whether this country or that are fraternal landscapes of “East / West” coalition, the problem is all these belong to the Asian continent, with or without influences, and no common bonds should be placed in their respective cultures.
one thing is for sure: U.S.A. is just another empire ready to go down but its remnants won’t aka the academic “American” language and its pop culture.
Consumerism is arguably the worst aspect of American culture. Progress doesn’t have to be about “more” in and of itself. It should be about quality. And if quality dictates a need for “more,” then there is a rationale for such excess. Though, right now, I’m at loss for an example where more is better.
“U.S.A. is just another empire ready to go down.”
Who said this first and when?
I was about to make a post listing a bunch of American films this year I’ve liked, and say that while mainstream cinema is mostly junk with some major exceptions, there are a lot of great American indie films coming out.
Until I saw what this thread turned into. So instead I’ll start a philosophical rant.
Consumerism is not a negative thing to me. It’s easy to blame capitalism for the current recession, but then you also have to blame it for the previous few decades of unparalleled innovation and prosperity. I don’t like pop starlet idolitry or destructive corporate greed, but I would gladly accept them as an alternative to having a centralized cultural force micromanaging my life. If my choice is only between two extremes, I’d rather live in Sin City than The Village. I may not agree with the consumerist garbage you watch, but I shall defend to the death your right to watch it.
As for ‘The fall of the American empire’. Everybody knows it’s not going to be the most powerful country in the world fifty years from now. But laying off all the sins of the human race on America because it’s the most powerful country right now is ridiculous. We’re not perfect and we’ve definitely got our bad apples, but wait till you see how a communist dictatorship behaves when it’s the most powerful. I’d rather some drunken jerk be rude to me on the street than be told I can’t post to the web any criticism of the state.
Sorry, guys, but I agree with Dimitris and Kenji…
Also, Jirin, that’s a pretty extreme example there. Totalitarian communism and constitutional free-market republics (like the USA) are not the only kind of governments in the world.
communism is a form of empire as well Jirin only hidden under the veil of fraud-proletariats and arrgant “saviors”, communism is as shitty as democracy and fascism are.
as shitty as democracy
yeah, the vox populi is a shitty thing, just ask Efe….lol
“communism is a form of empire as well Jirin only hidden under the veil of fraud-proletariats and arrgant “saviors”, communism is as shitty as democracy and fascism are.”
I can see Dimitris joining the Tea Party! :-)
JIRIN: the problem with that argument is that to appeal to freedom, you are removing the fact that humans may very well be conditioned to think and act a certain way within a particular socio-historical context. To me freedom should not be defended purely for its own sake. it must be placed in context.
I think the ‘lack of cultural’ is not just limited to America. it’s an Anglo thing, to a large extent, and most definitely a problem in the ‘new world’. These are cultures based on atomisation, free markets, ethical egoism, and/or a crude form of utilitarianism. How can you expect any real culture to flourish under these conditions? The other thing that doesn’t help in U.S/Canada/Australia is the anti-intellectual/anti-elitist mentality that has the potential to transform reasonably intelligent people into outright fools.
And i reject cultural relativism btw. all cultures may have unique features, but they are not morally equal. To me U.S culture, with its emphasis on self interest and consumerism and market freedoms, is like a cancer that has spread across the world and is slowly eroding moral values, contributing to the breakdown of traditional identity and communities. This is now a global problem that we have to deal with. although we can’t blame America solely. We didn’t have to accept their culture.
floserber
“Western culture is the dominate culture because it has the greatest insight into the structure of reality. It will remain the dominate culture until human progress ends.”
“To make comparisons suggesting one is preferable to the other, is ridiculous.”
it’s a little bit like saying one thing and its contrary, what is a “greatest insight of reality”?
It reminds me of a documentary i saw a lot of years ago, there were people coming on an island with a lot of cameras and stuff to make a film about the inhabitants of the island, and came a moment when they discussed together and one of the inhabitant said something like this: “you, the europeans, the americans, you think you know everything, you think you know the truth about everything, but for us the truth is here, on the island”. The western culture destroyed a lot of cultures to gain control on large parts of the world, it’s only a question of power, and it’s surely not the culture with the “greatest insight on reality”, it makes me laugh when maybe the first “european” philisopher Socrates said wisely “all i know is that i know nothing”, i wonder when the western culture began to think that it knows with a “greater insight” than the neighbour.