Renault: “Would a level three music fan be pitchfork’s bitch?”
They’re on a negative level, mate.
Then what would a level 3 music fan be to you: Mozart, Charles Mingus, Stravinsky, King Crimson, Godspeed You Black Emperor, Thelonious Monk, and Dvorak?
@RENAULT2011: okay, didn’t read the whole thing…
But the multitude, the philistine unwashed masses, I think, have a conception of music as an artform, even if it’s a shallow or superficial one. The archetypical idea of Mozart and Beethoven as great composers or artists is a well-defined part of our collective consciousness – the same couldn’t be said about Fellini, Bergman, Tarkovsky, etc. Other than art there’s a lot of other things in both Marley’s and Hendrix’ music and everybody knows that they’re not representing the most essential, the most pure or most intricate attempts at musical composition.
Btw – I am a film snob. literature snob. and music snob – so, I guess I can qualify in all 3 areas – ha! I like hunting down the obscure in all these areas, being encyclopedic, as well as exploring the mainstream. In film, I am a competent level 3 by Christine’s criteria. I can discuss so-called canon films and directors all day, having seen all or most of Kubrick, Bergman, Kurosawa, Tarkovsky, Tarr, Hitchcock, Antonioni, now Kiarostami, etc. I also love 1930’s screwball comedies, Marx Brothers, 40’s melodrama, film noir, just about any British film, anything from the 1960’s – and so forth. Keeps me well-grounded and rounded, like many another cinephile/explorers here. I am no different than many, I imagine – just a bit more definite in my tastes because of my own advanced years.
However, in terms of African, Latin American, many smaller European countries cinema, Asian cinema, independent, avant-garde, experimental film, I am a babe in the woods. As such, I can’t really pretend to be an authoriy in all areas, even if snobbish in some. I hope I don’t come off as an arrogant prig on this or any other site. I have too much to learn, even if I am still a bit of an elitist (and proud of it – I worked hard to get where I am) when it comes to music, literature, and film as art that I love.
@ODILONVERT: so much bullshit you’re talking!
@Renault2011: I gave you a pretty good education on Bazin and Truffaut. I at least expect a response.
@ Renault, Haha, I dunno. Level 4 would be one of those people who only listen to free-improv, electroacoustic music, onkyo-kei, field recordings and Andean folk music or something like that. I think level 3 people would be those that dip into some of that stuff, but are also more tolerant of more accessible music. I don’t think it works as easily with music fans.
Brett’s weird rambling basically boils down to “anyone who likes something I haven’t heard of is lying to look cool. If those obscure directors were so great, I would have heard of them!”
Hopefully, we’re getting closer to a “breakthrough”
Nah :)
@Keyser — why is that? Are you above the unwashed masses, huh? Hmmm… An aristocrat, eh?
@M — yeah, I know. Something about mental masturbation…
I’m a solid 4 on the Christine Scale (though I’ve only really just begun the journey), but I still love genre films as long as they’re not condescending to the audience (and some of those, too, on occasion, just for the spectacle).
I love the new and unheralded, but I’m not forgetting my roots, which is why I’m managing both Jafar Panahi and John Landis in the Director’s Cup 2011. I think that pretty well tells you where I’m coming from.
Well, being a musician, I can testify that many, many audiophiles are just as anti-mainstream.
This isn’t an issue that only relates to one art medium, it relates to every art medium.
Definitely.
Keyser:
I don’t think that’s necessarily true about Hendrix. Most aspiring guitarists recognize Hendrix’s talent as a guitarist the way classical musicians acknowledge the importance of Beethoven and Mozart. Saying Hendrix is less musically significant is akin to the hackneyed thinking that cinema is inherently inferior to other art forms.
@Renault
I went to Oberlin College. So yes, I am talking very specifically about people who went to Oberlin Conservatory.
I think a lot of the consensus on the greats of literature has to do with the lack of reliable long distance communication until a few decades ago. It was impossible until recently to not be mainstream and still let anybody know you existed. You read the consensus greats, and then you have nowhere else to go, because no copies of their books exist outside of dusty old acid-fading tomes hidden away in obscure collections.
(Not to mention all the famous big fires that consumed god knows how much great literature.)
If you want to see smug indie-audiophiles, I’ve got just the board for you. Metacricket. When Metacritic closed it’s forums, the forum denizens broke off and started their own forum, and only invited regulars from the Metacritic board.
Maybe we should have a thread for Level-4 music nerds. I’d probably start it with posting a link to “Mit Dir” by Robert Görl.
Any self-respecting Level-4 Music Nerd thread wouldn’t be complete without Bela Bartok.
…there was rainwater right up to Gods trembling knees
The most annoying film viewers are the level twos who think they’re post-level threes. Basically the ones who are fans of Wes Anderson, PTA, and the Coen Bros, and may have seen 8 1/2 and Breathless but not really anything beyond that and try to pass themselves off as sophisticates.
Hey Herbie — I liked that clip. I really have to get up to speed on watching the classic experimental filmmakers.
@Deckard — having grown up w/classical music, love Bela.
I know nothing of Bela Bartok other than the fact that I’ve heard the name before. Any recommendations?
as i said in some other thread, i’m a pretty solid 3, but i find that i enjoy myself more acting like i’m a 2. as much as i love film, taking it super seriously would probably ruin it for me. if keeping cinephilia at arm’s length — i have never once thought of myself as a “cinephile” vs. “a guy what likes a bunch of movies” — is what it takes to keep me from getting burned out from over-investment, then so be it.
but, i mean, one look at my dvd shelf alone is enough to confirm me as criterion’s bitch, sad trombone sound.
I love that I’ve watched House of Leave blossom from a 2.5 to a complete 4 in the span of a year and a half. It’s a wonderful thing. :D When it comes to literature, I’m probably a 3-3.5; and when it comes to music, I’m maybe a 1.5 if even that.
I find myself dropping down to 1 levels on some days, Sensational, so it’s all good! Also, I love how much this discussion has spiraled from being about pretentiousness and anti-mainstream to everyone having a rollicking good time.
Well to be at least a solid 3 in more than two mediums I think can get overly time consuming I would think. Anyhow, what’s your definition of a 1 when it comes to music, because to me listening to Hendrix, Zeppelin, Cream, The Doors, Radiohead, etc. would be level 2.
Also, what determines what level someone is, curiosity or knowledge, because I’d say as far as literature is concerned I may be a level 2 in terms of knowledge but a level 4 in terms of curiosity, but there’s only so much time in the day. One problem is there’s so much I’d like to read than I wind up with reader’s block, because I can’t decide on something to read. When I settle on a book I realize there’s something else I want to read, and I put too much pressure on myself to be as well read as possible, so I wind up with reader’s block.
My favorite in terms of number ratings/levels:
I know — video quality horrible, but the rest on youtube won’t embed.
i’m definitely closer to 4 than i am to 3 when it comes to music, but the point for me is less to hear what NO ONE ELSE IS HEARING but to hear… as much as i possibly can, period, point-blank. don’t care who or what or how popular or why.
I agree with that route! :)
Hey, Renault – try Bartok’s Music for Strings, Percussion & Celeste and his Concerto for Orchestra. This is essential Bartok for when you need a break from Dylan and The Doors (great as they also are).
On another note: Anyone been ’round long enough on this site to remember when some posters had cinephile after their username (like moderator now). Maybe we should bring that back. Those who want the cine-explorer badge should be able to have that, too.
In my experience i’ve found that film ‘snobs’ are less snobby than hardcore fans of music and literature i know. Most music fans i know don’t listen to much pop, unless it’s old, and if they do, it’s for ‘ironic’ reasons only.
If anything i’d argue that cinema fans are too lenient on their criticism of Hollywood and take middle of the road crap far too seriously.
Dylan Ibrahim
@Odi- Exactly! Even though I can be a weirdo…But still