THE HUMAN CONDITION 1 – Bicycle Thieves 0
For my side a clear decision for Kobayashis earnest and at times very heavy masterpiece. It is not that I really dislike Bicycle Thieves. But I have to say that especially in forming a new kind of cinematic realism, the japanese created in the 30s so much great films that I doubt the important role of italian neorealism.
LATE SPRING 1 Blow Up 0
I like Blow Up a lot but no chance against one of my three or four favorite Ozu films. Just beside that, BANSHUN has for me one of the most beautiful and most moving final scene I ever saw.
Late Spring 1 vs Blow Up 0
The Human Condition 1 – Bicycle Thieves 0
As much as I respect “Bicycle Thieves” for the attempt to depict the Italian´s desperate situation after a devastating war as well as the touching relationship between father and son, Kobayashi´s harrowing epos ventures right into the heart of darkness, and offers one of the most impressive statements on war, lost ideals and the failure of humanity.
Late Spring 1 – Blow Up 0
The decision between Ozu´s minimalist masterpiece and Antonioni´s brilliant reconstruction of a crime has not been that easy, but “Late Spring” seems to me more emotional, honest and closer to life. As Rüdiger Tomczak mentioned, the final scene in which Chishû Ryû returns home after his daughter´s wedding and begins to peel the orange while we understand that he has to spend the rest of his life alone is truly heartbreaking, and make this one of my favorites by Ozu.
Ugetsu Monogatari 1 – The Conformist 0
“Ugetsu monogatari” was the film which first made me aware of this wonderful director who dedicated his lifetime to the refinement of his style until he brought his common themes to perfection. Although “Ugetsu monogatari” might be close to the horror genre or a moral tale does Mizoguchi transcend those boundaries and convert the film in a breathtaking and universal approach on the fragility of life. Bertolucci´s film seems to at least come close in terms of cinematography since Vittorio Storaro had been doing a great job on that film, but the timeless beauty and relevance of Mizoguchi´s film as well as the elegant travellings Kazuo Miyagawa uses surpass the Italian film in my opinion.
I thought we were restarting on the 5th!
Oh, well…
for now, an easy choice
(I hope to be back later)
ugetsu monogatari 0 — 1 the conformist
Late Spring 0 — Blow Up 1
But, in the end, we’re considering the complete The Human Condition or only the first one of the trilogy?
Ugetsu 1 — The Conformist 0
Dan,i saw it in its entirety and (personally) i’ll vote that way….i’ve heard some were only counting “No Greater Love” but i can’t recall at the moment.
In case that you have seen the whole “Human Condition Trilogy” you´re allowed to vote for the entire epos, but in case that you have only managed to see the first part will your vote for “No Greater Love” be counted. I personally tried to consider both the first part as well as the extension of those issues displayed in “No Greater Love” while deciding for which film to vote.
Oh, cruel world that we have to choose which is better of these 6 excellent films…
The Human Condition 0 – Bicycle Thieves 1
OK, I was only able to watch parts 1 and 3 of Human Condition, so I am basing this on mainly part 1. I admire the effort Kobayashi put into this epic – which tries to capture the true horrors of the wartime experience when seen through the eyes of a man who tries to mitigate the brutality around him, but is ultimately swept up by it. My main problem with the film is that I think it tries too hard to make a case that the kind underside of the Japanese nature was overturned by the cruelties of the war experience. I think Kaji is just too good and represents how the Japanese at the time of this film’s release would have liked to have seen themselves – as opposed to the war. Unfortunately, the true nature of the war, of Japan’s invasion of Manchuria and subsequently China, is glossed over by this nice Japanese hero’s story with his totally trusting wife. It implies that if just a few good Japanese had tried harder, the extent of the human misery may have been lessened. In actual fact, none of this happened and no opposition to this war policy emerged in Japan until after the war, when seen in retrospect.
The hero Kaji represents, then, the good conscience of the Japanese of the late 50’s,. post war. I thought it a bit too unrealistic for this reason, although there are powerful scenes, like the execution scene, which help to redeem the film. Also, I found part 1 overly long. Part 3 is much better, but this is still overshadowed by the greater complexity of Fires on the Plain.
Bicycle Thieves just felt more authentic and real to me, with a powerful ending.
Late Spring 0 – Blow Up 1
Very hard to vote against my favourite Ozu. Late Spring is a perfect film in miniature, with every scene building toward the whole mediative effort. However, Blow Up is still my top Antonioni. It now has its dated moments, but still packs a punch with its carely crafted structure. I have written here about my fascination with this film (on my old account). Blow Up is one of my top 25 films of all time. Still, a very hard choice.
Ugetsu Monogatari 1 – The Conformist 0
Again, very difficult, as The Conformist is such a perfect character study and so well filmed by the great Storaro. This is probably Storaro’s masterpiece, with every shot beautifully framed and photographed. Ugetsu is my all-time favourite Mizoguchi and a film that I never tire of viewing. The scene in the misty lake at the beginning of the film is one of the magic moments in cinema. Two great films, and I love them both for different reasons. Hard, hard choices here, but there you are.
Ugetsu Monogatari 1 – The Conformist 0
Ugetsu Monogatari (Kenji Mizoguchi) 1 – The Conformist (Bernardo Bertolucci) 0
The Human Condition 0 – Bicycle Thieves 1
Bicycle Thieves works on a couple of levels, as an economic document and a great portrait of the father/son relationship. Prevails over even this powerful competition.Late Spring 1 – Blow Up 0
A decent film by Antonioni versus the film that made the magnificent Hara Setsuko ineffable. Antonioni had no chance.Ugetsu Monogatari 1 – The Conformist 0
I feel that the visual quality is The Conformists strongest positive. But there’s always even stronger visuals.Ugetsu Monogatari 1 – The Conformist 0
The Human Condition (Masaki Kobayashi) 0 – Bicycle Thieves (Vittorio De Sica) 1
Bicycle Thieves is virtual perfection. Kobayashi’s trilogy is powerful at times but inert at others.
Late Spring (Yasujirō Ozu) 1 – Blow Up (Michelangelo Antonioni) 0
Blow Up is a product firmly entrenched in its zeitgeist and has not aged well. Late Spring remains timeless and universal.
Ugetsu Monogatari (Kenji Mizoguchi) 1 – The Conformist (Bernardo Bertolucci) 0
This was a truly tough choice. The Conformist is most definitely Bertolucci’s finest work; however, it just falls short of Mizoguchi’s exquisitely told tale of illusion.
Thank you, gentlemen, for the excellent choices.
Drew,i guess i’m the minority of Blow Up supporters,haha.
Blow Up is a total masterpiece, come on.
The Human Condition 0 – Bicycle Thieves 1
Late Spring 1 – Blow Up 0
1. The Human Condition 1 – Bicycle Thieves 0
I like Bicycle Thieves as much as the next man but The Human Condition is one of the towering achievements in all of cinema, and is one of the most powerful and affecting pieces I’ve yet seen and probably ever will. I find getting too het up about a films veracity with regards to real world events usually ends up being frustrating and so I don’t pay too much attention to whether the events portrayed really happened that way or not, but rather do the characters seem authentic and does the film have anything to say about what it means to be human and about how the world is? With The Human Condition Kobayashi excels beyond all possible expectations by crafting an utterly engrossing chronicle of a good man’s journey through a hard life.
2. Late Spring 1 – Blow Up 0
I didn’t like Late Spring as much as Tokyo Twilight… in fact I wasn’t keen on it at all when I was watching it – it dragged for me. However, it seems to be one of those films that improves in my mind after the fact. Chishû Ryû is a fantastic actor. Bob and others may remember my thread some months ago ‘Blow Up…What The Hell?’ and I still haven’t quite got my head round Antonioni’s obtuse ‘masterpiece’ but I have gained an appreciation of his other films so I have high hopes for Blow Up when I next watch it. For now though my vote goes to Ozu.
3. Ugetsu Monogatari 1 – The Conformist 0
Although the cinematography by Vittorio Storaro is pretty astounding I didn’t much care for The Conformist. I couldn’t really connect with the main character and didn’t much care what happened to him in the end. A treat to look at but not much soul. After seeing five or ten minutes of Ugetsu I knew I was in for a treat and I wasn’t disappointed. Sansho is still my favourite Mizoguchi but Ugetsu is right up there. Easy peasy.
Late Spring 0 – Blow Up 1
Ugetsu Monogatari 1 – The Conformist 0
The Human Condition 0 – Bicycle Thieves 1
HC is maybe a bit revisionist. Bicycle Thieves tries to make less of a statement and just paints a picture. HC is very long and in three parts. I’m not sure it should compete directly with a single film.
Late Spring 0 – Blow Up 1
Just not an Ozu fan. The same themes seem to be repeated in many of his films. I gained no insight from watching LS or any Ozu film. Ryu is hard to take for me. Antonioni makes more of a statement and is much more cinematic. I don’t need to rewatch Ozu because nothing happens of cinematic interest and the dialog and story are too simple to compensate.
Ugetsu Monogatari 1 – The Conformist 0
Ugetsu is a real dream of a film. Unlike Ozu, it is a true cinematic experience. Bertolucci is a a little bit lower than the other Italian masters.
Rumplesink – Yes, some of us remember fondly your Blow Up thread and the discussion on it. I too have ‘high hopes’ that you’ll revise your opinion at some point. For those interested on following this up, here are Rumplesink’s thread and another where Antonioni is discussed in detail. Both Ozu and Antonioni are masters of the understated and maybe this is really a match-up that proves that.
Abstraction & Ennui in Antonioni
(Forgive the pretentious sounding title of this thread).
Wow, this is gonna go right down to the wire.
current scores:
The Human Condition 3 Bicycle Thieves 5
Late Spring 7 Blow Up 4
Ugetsu Monogatari 11 The Conformist 1
Late Spring 1 – Blow Up 0
Ugetsu Monogatari 1 – The Conformist 0
Late Spring 0 – Blow Up 1
Not even a close one here…
A battle of legendary geometric framers. While Ozu weaves a beautiful, quintessential tale, Late Spring feels no different stylistically from any of his other masterpieces. For me, it lacks the deep theoretical style and study of the cinematic medium that the near-perfect Blow Up does. From the comparison of the two dialectics of the still and the moving image, to the question of what we miss at 24 frames/second that the photograph (or individual frame) enables, to the ultimate question asking whether there can ever be a comparison between our world and the cinematic world, Blow Up exists as a rare breed of film, one that unwinds a complex narrative, while remaining pedagogical. It is in this sense, that Blow Up diverges from any other film in his oeuvre (with parts of The Passenger taking some of Blow Up’s ideas to a new level), and thus deserves high praise. On a side note: in my opinion, while it can be suggested that Blow Up is “outdated,” the theoretical, reflexive questions it asks are questions still relevant and debated in film circles today.
Ugetsu Monogatari 1 – The Conformist 0
Save the last ten or so minutes of The Conformist, this vote is also not even close. Mizoguchi’s dream like fantasy wins out. Technically, a much more beautiful film (though no Sansho), Ugetsu is much more that Bertolucci can handle [perhaps his very underrated (in my opinion) La commare secca would have fared better here].
Late Spring 1 – Blow Up 0
Ugetsu Monogatari 1 – The Conformist 0
I can’t do this … I have to do this.
Drew, I’m sorry
Late Spring 1 – Blow Up 0
And as kerpan constantly complains my appreciation of Ozu is unsatisfactory. Unfortunately my appreciation of Blow Up is minimal.
Ugetsu Monogatari 1 – Il Conformista 0
But that was painfully hard. Anything but Ugetsu, and Il Conformista would have sailed through like the intelligent, elegant masterpiece it is. But Ugetsu is tender and beautiful and I fell in love with it long ago.
OK, Kenji, now will you consider giving Teshigahara some time off the bench?
i’m not counting chickens, Drew and i are in for a long 24 hours i’m sure, he’s an old hand at nailbiters, has come through, very tenacious, a handful of votes could be all it takes. We’ve only had 5 hours, 18 left! Excellent turnout on this match so far, and i hope China v Russia get plenty more votes, seeing as it’s a 1/4 final
apursansar
THE AUTEURS WORLD CUP 2009 : 1/4 FINAL VOTING
We are now starting the 1/4 final matches. New participants are still most welcome and allowed to vote in the following match-ups.
On this thread, voting will be on match B, Japan v Italy. The other match between China and Russia will be on another thread.
The extended voting period for this match lasts from 7 pm GTM on Thursday 3rd December until 6 pm GMT on Friday 4th December, which means that users will have 23 hours in order to publish their votes. The world map which lists all current time zones can be found on www.worldtimezone.com, so that everyone can be up to date about how much time is left.
After the voting period is over the votes will be counted and the results published. We will then be having a one hour break, before the next two matches start, and a viewing break for the next round after the 1/4 final matches are over.
The special world cup section is still to be updated, the current line-ups and previous 1/8 final films provided by The Auteurs staff can be found on: http://www.theauteurs.com/worldcup2009
Each user can vote on any line-up of each match as long as he/she has watched both films that are lined-up against each other. An explanation for the preference in each case would be greatly appreciated, as provided by most voters in the previous matches. You can vote on any single pairing; you do not have to vote on all 3 pairings of a match. Team managers are not allowed to vote on matches their own team participates in. The voting should be handled like this:
Film A 1 (or 0) – Film B 0 (or 1)
Film C 0 (or 1) – Film D 1 (or 0)
Film E 1 (or 0) – Film F 0 (or 1)
Please mark the winning film/score in large or heavy print. You can give your explanatory statements either after each vote or after all 3 votes.
The match you´re going to vote for on this thread is
JAPAN V ITALY
The Human Condition (Masaki Kobayashi) – Bicycle Thieves (Vittorio De Sica)
Late Spring (Yasujirō Ozu) – Blow Up (Michelangelo Antonioni)
Ugetsu Monogatari (Kenji Mizoguchi) – The Conformist (Bernardo Bertolucci)