How can it take away from the whole experience when it is a part of the experience. Clearly a lot of thought went into the decision to use it and personally I think it entirely complements the style of the movie. And if we’re talking about jarring and unfitting music, what about The Wicker Man? Jarring and unfitting, definitely, but also utterly superb!
No, I’m think it was pushed heavily by the studio because it reflected a state of being that many middle aged male film executives could relate to, rather like Lost in Translation seemed to be as well. Neither were as brilliant as the industry would like us to believe.
2046, now that was a great movie, and Hotel Rwanda was very underrated.
Deckard, yes you’re right, 2004 seems such a long time ago.
Hotel Rwanda did pretty well at the box office (grossing something like $33 million), yes critics did love it, it was meant to send Don Cheadle’s career stratopheric, and it’s number 104 in the IMDB top 250.
Promoted by middle aged white male film executives because it was something they could relate to, specifically the Bill Murray character, and his lust for Johansson. The movie-going public were led to believe this was a great movie made by an emerging talent. Neither could be further from the truth. A truly dull movie made by a young woman lucky enough to have a genius director as a father but with no great talent herself.
Rohmer’s Claire’s Knee. Abolute tosh. These French film makers certainly knew how to bore you to death in the 70s.
The Libertine with Johnny Depp. I mean what was that all about, and how did Johnny Vegas get in there?
But the film that made me want to ask for two hours of my life back was Igby Goes Down. Whatever happened to Burr Steers, and do we really care? No.
Quite obviously not all French film makers made boring films during the 1970s. However, the image of dull 1970s French movies, where nothing really happens, and everything that is said has some deep meaning can be occasionally be found in both British and American comedy, here in Blighty most recently French and Saunders have used the idea in their most recent series.
I absolutely did not mean to offend. Irony does not always work in postings.
I don’t know, Deckard, you could argue that Breathless was a terrible film, freedom of expression allows that, and many may agree with you.
Demitris, I thought this thread was asking what you thought was the worst movie ever made, and not the most stupid (hence, although not very well argued, my choice of Claire’s Knee) . And surely there is not a definitive line between artistic and blockbuster movies. Surely you can have an artistic Blockbuster movie? or even a blockbuster Artistic movie?
Claire’s Knee. Apparently a masterpiece. It left me tacky and bigoted. No, really, some people enjoy the hard work required by slow, artistic movies, and their lives are made all the richer for it, but I do believe that it is quite possible to have an opinion that is opposite and for that opinion to be valid. I also found Last Year at Marienbad unwatchable, as I did Godard’s Weekend, and personally I thought both were pretentious and unentertaining.
Maybe the term “wilfully obscure” describes what many mean when they think of a film as pretentious? Last Year in Marienbad for my money may have a message, and a story to tell, but it is wilfully obscure in its telling, or maybe even pretentious. Maybe Lorna has a point and its the people talking about film who show pretentiousness (moi?). But as Shotzi says
“…it’s about showing off, being pompous, acting as though something is more important than it actually is.”
rather like Von Trier believing he is the best director in the world. But back to Laws original point, naming a film that is very obviously a deliberate and unsuccessful attempt at art? Well, Inland Empire I would suggest is definitely a deliberate attempt at Art, it’s less of a movie more of a work of art. It could be seen in a gallery rather than a theatre. And it’s successful. (and wilfully obscure!)
Criticising Godard. Well only really having seen his sixties movies, all I can say is that creating films that that offer an obscure take on the failings of capitalism and the need for a revolution of the proletariat always struck me as rather pompous and self important. But Bergman, he made beautiful movies, albeit sometimes a little wilfully obscure..
Maybe I answered your query in your thread “pretentiousness”. It seems to have become a fairly lively debate. It certainly made me thinkk about what pretentiousness was vis a vis movies.
Regeneration directed by Gillies MacKinnon, based on the superb novel by Pat Barker. The movie (and the novel) offers an insight into the psychological problems suffered by officers in the Great War by focusing on the poet Siegfried Sassoon’s A Soldier’s Declaration, the traditions of honour and duty that forced them to fight for their country and the repression of resistance to war ingrained in the British psyche of the time. Considering the complexity of the novel MacKinnon did a fine job getting across its basic ideas and Jonathan Pryce and Jonny Lee Miller are on top form.
Pro-war movies are a dime-a-dozen surely. I mean weren’t the studios pumping them out during and after WWII.
Another great movie that is perhaps more anti army culture rather than anti-war is Sidney Lumet’s The Hill. It’s taut and gripping, and was a scathing indictment of UK conscription / national service which the government had terminated in 1960, 5 years earlier.
If you getting into Ozu I would recommend Mark Cousins book The Story of Film. Although not specifically about Ozu, Cousins does cover elements in the wider context of World Cinema, discussing Ozu’s classic style and use of space.
Cousins is a great writer too so I would recommend the book anyway!
Wow Justin & Robert, I saw this thread and immediately thought the only film that makes me weep time and time again is It’s A Wondeful Life. The end gets me every time too.
Tarkovsky’s Ivan’s Childhood is a beautifully made movie about the brutality of war and its effect on children. Maybe not one of his best (he took over the directorial seat from someone else) but definitely worth a watch.
Victim starring Dirk Bogart is a superb movie directed by Basil Dearden and released in 1961. The story revolves around a lawyer who goes after a blackmailer who threatens gay men with exposure. Homosexuality still being a criminal offence in the UK then. The movie was far ahead of its time and is still an interesting insight into Britsh society of the late 50s and early 60s.
The Ipcress File starring Michael Caine and directed by Sidney J Furie is an interesting twist on the 60’s spy movie. Adapted from the Len Deighton novel, Caine plays Harry Palmer, a working class British agent who gets used by British intelligence to uncover a double agent. A classic.
Although it was really a TV episode of the Wednesday Play, Cathy Come Home, directed by Ken Loach, is a superb indictment of homelessness in the UK during the mid sixties. Watch it and weep. Available on BFI / BBC dvd.
And when talking of great British movies of the 60s who can fail to mention Carol Reed’s classic re-telling of the Dickens novel Oliver Twist – Oliver! Utterly superb, Lionel Bart’s songs are timeless, Jack Wild is brilliant as The Artful Dodger, still great entertainment.
Oh, and of course if you want a real insight into British society and culture of the 1960s you must watch the Carry On movies. Starting with Carry On Constable (1960). There were I think 15 Carry On movies from the 60s, my favourite being Carry On Screaming (1966) starring the gorgeous Fenella Fielding.
Although not a fan of dubbing at all, I must admit Argento’s movies are definitely imbued with a more sinister ambience through his use of dubbing due to the mix of Italian and English-speaking actors.
Some of the most arresting stylised violence can be found in Dario Argento’s Suspiria.
During the opening 15 minutes it is the meaning he creates visually, enhanced by the goblins dissonant soundtrack underpinning the narrative flow, that pushes the story along. The opening section of the movie reflects a narrative structure that appears throughout the film; where tension is increasingly built through a scene only to end in an eruption of violence.
However, even though this kind of cinema violence may have been seen as objectionable when it was made, I think time and greater access to media (video & DVD/computer games/the internet/etc) has seen movie watchers become far more cine-literate and liberal in their attitude towards movie violence. Argento’s stylised violence can now be seen merely as violent entertainment. Scorcese and Tarantino furthered its acceptance through movies such as Goodfellas and Reservoir Dogs, and then the “torture porn” movies have further de-sensitised the viewer from ever greater levels of violence in movies.
Generally, I think most movie goers are adult enough to see the violence for what it is, and no level of censorship is needed. However, the horror movie genre in particular has a lot to answer for in its depiction of violence against women. Argento in particular comes across as a card-carrying misogynist, as does Wes Craven (Last House on the Left). And it’s the overused “throwaway girl” motif that pervades even the modern horror / cross over movie (Cloverfield?) that continues to justify stylised violence against women as entertainment.
Cloverfield. What happened? did they run out of money? Blair Witch meets Alien meets Earthquake. This is a movie that will grow on me no doubt. Rather like Starship Troopers has. First viewing, not convinced. But reveals more depth and meaning on further viewings.
Also watched Das Experiment. A superb depiction of a true story. 14 volunteers are given the role of prisoner or guard in the experiment and we watch as the drama unfolds over the next few days. Brilliantly paced, fantastic story, great acting.
Surely one of the main thrusts of Gomorra (if we’re talking about the Italian gangster movie from 2008) according to Saviano, who wrote the book, was that movies had influenced the Italian gangsters to such an extent that they saw Tony Montana as their role model rather than the previous generation of gangsters. They wanted a house like Montana’s, they wanted a coke habit like Montana’s and they wanted to die like Montana. Gomorra wasn’t about tragedy, this was reality, hence Saviano has been in hiding since he wrote the book.
Josh, you may well be right, I haven’t read the book, but I have seen a couple of interviews with Saviano, and he points out that wereas in gangster movies, the protagonists are generally shown as a brotherhood who live by the rules of the game, what he found whilst researching the book was gangsters in thrall to the cinema version what a gangster should look like and the way they should behave. It is as if it has come full circle.
Oh dear Simon. Nothing positive to say ? An appearance on Big Brother hardly undermines a fascinating career, and Russell was one of the early explorers of digital film making, many years before the likes of Michael Mann (but maybe without such positive results!)
I agree with Deckard, Altered States is a cracking movie. Having seen it when it was first released I recently bought the video and it is a masterful assemblage of amazing visuals allied to a fantastic choice of classical music, something Ken has always been rather good at. The story is a real comic book caper – Carlos Castenada meets An American Werewolf in London, with William Hurt making his movie debut as Professor of Abnormal Psychology, Eddie Jessup. Brilliant.
Fellini – Night of Cabiria
Bergman – The Virgin Spring
Truffaut – The 400 Blows
Renoir – The Grand Illusion
Herzog – Aguire: Wrath of God
Godard – Alphaville
Antonioni – The Passenger
Bresson – The Trial of Joan of Arc
Hitchcock – Rear Window
Bunuel – Exterminating Angel
Lang – The Big Heat
Tarkovsky – Solaris
Altman – M.A.S.H
De Sica – Bicycle Thieves
Polanski – Repulsion
Wenders – Paris, Texas
Melville – Bob Le Flambeur
Kubrick – 2001: A Space Odyssey
If we’re going to go for a pop music / Godard comparison, there are far better examples than Lennon / Godard. How about Scott Walker? He begins with seminal pop a la Walker Brothers, goes through the more complex, multi-layered productions during the late 60s early 70s, wobbles a bit in the late seventies, and then gives us the more abstract Climate of the Hunter, Tilt and The Drift.
Walker "compares his technique of assembling images that are sometimes seemingly disparate from each other and unconnected into short blocks of text to that of ‘a general, assembling troops on the battlefield’ " – quoted from wikipedia.
If a director drank heavily and was affected in his/ her work, would an appreciation of their art be improved by partaking in an alchoholic beverage prior to and during the movie?
Sam Peckinpah called himself “a working alchoholic”; he drank hard and abused drugs. Are his films better after downing a few whiskies and snortinng a few lines of cocaine? Or are they just not very good anyway?
The Third Man music: annoying? almost 3 years ago
How can it take away from the whole experience when it is a part of the experience. Clearly a lot of thought went into the decision to use it and personally I think it entirely complements the style of the movie. And if we’re talking about jarring and unfitting music, what about The Wicker Man? Jarring and unfitting, definitely, but also utterly superb!
Go to Comment
Do you think Sideways is the best film of 2004? almost 3 years ago
No, I’m think it was pushed heavily by the studio because it reflected a state of being that many middle aged male film executives could relate to, rather like Lost in Translation seemed to be as well. Neither were as brilliant as the industry would like us to believe.
2046, now that was a great movie, and Hotel Rwanda was very underrated.
Go to Comment
Do you think Sideways is the best film of 2004? almost 3 years ago
Deckard, yes you’re right, 2004 seems such a long time ago.
Hotel Rwanda did pretty well at the box office (grossing something like $33 million), yes critics did love it, it was meant to send Don Cheadle’s career stratopheric, and it’s number 104 in the IMDB top 250.
Whoops
Go to Comment
Why I didn't like the film almost 3 years ago
Promoted by middle aged white male film executives because it was something they could relate to, specifically the Bill Murray character, and his lust for Johansson. The movie-going public were led to believe this was a great movie made by an emerging talent. Neither could be further from the truth. A truly dull movie made by a young woman lucky enough to have a genius director as a father but with no great talent herself.
Go to Comment
WHAT IS YOUR PICK FOR THE WORSE MOVIE EVER MADE? almost 3 years ago
Rohmer’s Claire’s Knee. Abolute tosh. These French film makers certainly knew how to bore you to death in the 70s.
The Libertine with Johnny Depp. I mean what was that all about, and how did Johnny Vegas get in there?
But the film that made me want to ask for two hours of my life back was Igby Goes Down. Whatever happened to Burr Steers, and do we really care? No.
Go to Comment
WHAT IS YOUR PICK FOR THE WORSE MOVIE EVER MADE? almost 3 years ago
Oh, Dimitris, where is your sense of humour.
Quite obviously not all French film makers made boring films during the 1970s. However, the image of dull 1970s French movies, where nothing really happens, and everything that is said has some deep meaning can be occasionally be found in both British and American comedy, here in Blighty most recently French and Saunders have used the idea in their most recent series.
I absolutely did not mean to offend. Irony does not always work in postings.
Go to Comment
WHAT IS YOUR PICK FOR THE WORSE MOVIE EVER MADE? almost 3 years ago
I don’t know, Deckard, you could argue that Breathless was a terrible film, freedom of expression allows that, and many may agree with you.
Demitris, I thought this thread was asking what you thought was the worst movie ever made, and not the most stupid (hence, although not very well argued, my choice of Claire’s Knee) . And surely there is not a definitive line between artistic and blockbuster movies. Surely you can have an artistic Blockbuster movie? or even a blockbuster Artistic movie?
Go to Comment
Art-House films people give you "shit" for not liking almost 3 years ago
Claire’s Knee. Apparently a masterpiece. It left me tacky and bigoted. No, really, some people enjoy the hard work required by slow, artistic movies, and their lives are made all the richer for it, but I do believe that it is quite possible to have an opinion that is opposite and for that opinion to be valid. I also found Last Year at Marienbad unwatchable, as I did Godard’s Weekend, and personally I thought both were pretentious and unentertaining.
Go to Comment
Pretentiousness almost 3 years ago
Maybe the term “wilfully obscure” describes what many mean when they think of a film as pretentious? Last Year in Marienbad for my money may have a message, and a story to tell, but it is wilfully obscure in its telling, or maybe even pretentious. Maybe Lorna has a point and its the people talking about film who show pretentiousness (moi?). But as Shotzi says
“…it’s about showing off, being pompous, acting as though something is more important than it actually is.”
rather like Von Trier believing he is the best director in the world. But back to Laws original point, naming a film that is very obviously a deliberate and unsuccessful attempt at art? Well, Inland Empire I would suggest is definitely a deliberate attempt at Art, it’s less of a movie more of a work of art. It could be seen in a gallery rather than a theatre. And it’s successful. (and wilfully obscure!)
Criticising Godard. Well only really having seen his sixties movies, all I can say is that creating films that that offer an obscure take on the failings of capitalism and the need for a revolution of the proletariat always struck me as rather pompous and self important. But Bergman, he made beautiful movies, albeit sometimes a little wilfully obscure..
Go to Comment
Art-House films people give you "shit" for not liking almost 3 years ago
Maybe I answered your query in your thread “pretentiousness”. It seems to have become a fairly lively debate. It certainly made me thinkk about what pretentiousness was vis a vis movies.
Go to Comment
Indian Films...or lack thereof almost 3 years ago
Get out the soap Demitris
Go to Comment
A True Anti-War Movie almost 3 years ago
Regeneration directed by Gillies MacKinnon, based on the superb novel by Pat Barker. The movie (and the novel) offers an insight into the psychological problems suffered by officers in the Great War by focusing on the poet Siegfried Sassoon’s A Soldier’s Declaration, the traditions of honour and duty that forced them to fight for their country and the repression of resistance to war ingrained in the British psyche of the time. Considering the complexity of the novel MacKinnon did a fine job getting across its basic ideas and Jonathan Pryce and Jonny Lee Miller are on top form.
Go to Comment
A True Anti-War Movie almost 3 years ago
Deckard,
Pro-war movies are a dime-a-dozen surely. I mean weren’t the studios pumping them out during and after WWII.
Another great movie that is perhaps more anti army culture rather than anti-war is Sidney Lumet’s The Hill. It’s taut and gripping, and was a scathing indictment of UK conscription / national service which the government had terminated in 1960, 5 years earlier.
Go to Comment
Searching for Ozu almost 3 years ago
If you getting into Ozu I would recommend Mark Cousins book The Story of Film. Although not specifically about Ozu, Cousins does cover elements in the wider context of World Cinema, discussing Ozu’s classic style and use of space.
Cousins is a great writer too so I would recommend the book anyway!
Go to Comment
What film scenes really make you cry? almost 3 years ago
Wow Justin & Robert, I saw this thread and immediately thought the only film that makes me weep time and time again is It’s A Wondeful Life. The end gets me every time too.
Go to Comment
A True Anti-War Movie almost 3 years ago
Tarkovsky’s Ivan’s Childhood is a beautifully made movie about the brutality of war and its effect on children. Maybe not one of his best (he took over the directorial seat from someone else) but definitely worth a watch.
Go to Comment
Where are you from? almost 3 years ago
Exeter, UK
Go to Comment
British films of the 1960s almost 3 years ago
Victim starring Dirk Bogart is a superb movie directed by Basil Dearden and released in 1961. The story revolves around a lawyer who goes after a blackmailer who threatens gay men with exposure. Homosexuality still being a criminal offence in the UK then. The movie was far ahead of its time and is still an interesting insight into Britsh society of the late 50s and early 60s.
The Ipcress File starring Michael Caine and directed by Sidney J Furie is an interesting twist on the 60’s spy movie. Adapted from the Len Deighton novel, Caine plays Harry Palmer, a working class British agent who gets used by British intelligence to uncover a double agent. A classic.
Although it was really a TV episode of the Wednesday Play, Cathy Come Home, directed by Ken Loach, is a superb indictment of homelessness in the UK during the mid sixties. Watch it and weep. Available on BFI / BBC dvd.
And when talking of great British movies of the 60s who can fail to mention Carol Reed’s classic re-telling of the Dickens novel Oliver Twist – Oliver! Utterly superb, Lionel Bart’s songs are timeless, Jack Wild is brilliant as The Artful Dodger, still great entertainment.
Go to Comment
British films of the 1960s almost 3 years ago
Oh, and of course if you want a real insight into British society and culture of the 1960s you must watch the Carry On movies. Starting with Carry On Constable (1960). There were I think 15 Carry On movies from the 60s, my favourite being Carry On Screaming (1966) starring the gorgeous Fenella Fielding.
Go to Comment
Foreign Laguage Films: Subtitles or Overdubbing almost 3 years ago
Although not a fan of dubbing at all, I must admit Argento’s movies are definitely imbued with a more sinister ambience through his use of dubbing due to the mix of Italian and English-speaking actors.
Go to Comment
Stylization of violence in film almost 3 years ago
Some of the most arresting stylised violence can be found in Dario Argento’s Suspiria.
During the opening 15 minutes it is the meaning he creates visually, enhanced by the goblins dissonant soundtrack underpinning the narrative flow, that pushes the story along. The opening section of the movie reflects a narrative structure that appears throughout the film; where tension is increasingly built through a scene only to end in an eruption of violence.
However, even though this kind of cinema violence may have been seen as objectionable when it was made, I think time and greater access to media (video & DVD/computer games/the internet/etc) has seen movie watchers become far more cine-literate and liberal in their attitude towards movie violence. Argento’s stylised violence can now be seen merely as violent entertainment. Scorcese and Tarantino furthered its acceptance through movies such as Goodfellas and Reservoir Dogs, and then the “torture porn” movies have further de-sensitised the viewer from ever greater levels of violence in movies.
Generally, I think most movie goers are adult enough to see the violence for what it is, and no level of censorship is needed. However, the horror movie genre in particular has a lot to answer for in its depiction of violence against women. Argento in particular comes across as a card-carrying misogynist, as does Wes Craven (Last House on the Left). And it’s the overused “throwaway girl” motif that pervades even the modern horror / cross over movie (Cloverfield?) that continues to justify stylised violence against women as entertainment.
Go to Comment
what did you watch today? almost 3 years ago
Cloverfield. What happened? did they run out of money? Blair Witch meets Alien meets Earthquake. This is a movie that will grow on me no doubt. Rather like Starship Troopers has. First viewing, not convinced. But reveals more depth and meaning on further viewings.
Also watched Das Experiment. A superb depiction of a true story. 14 volunteers are given the role of prisoner or guard in the experiment and we watch as the drama unfolds over the next few days. Brilliantly paced, fantastic story, great acting.
Go to Comment
Stylization of violence in film almost 3 years ago
Surely one of the main thrusts of Gomorra (if we’re talking about the Italian gangster movie from 2008) according to Saviano, who wrote the book, was that movies had influenced the Italian gangsters to such an extent that they saw Tony Montana as their role model rather than the previous generation of gangsters. They wanted a house like Montana’s, they wanted a coke habit like Montana’s and they wanted to die like Montana. Gomorra wasn’t about tragedy, this was reality, hence Saviano has been in hiding since he wrote the book.
Go to Comment
Stylization of violence in film almost 3 years ago
Josh, you may well be right, I haven’t read the book, but I have seen a couple of interviews with Saviano, and he points out that wereas in gangster movies, the protagonists are generally shown as a brotherhood who live by the rules of the game, what he found whilst researching the book was gangsters in thrall to the cinema version what a gangster should look like and the way they should behave. It is as if it has come full circle.
Go to Comment
best foreign films from 2000 onwards - France almost 3 years ago
Dominik Moll’s work has been particularly interesting – Harry, He’s Here to Help and Lemming are both wonderful films.
Go to Comment
Ken Russell over 2 years ago
Oh dear Simon. Nothing positive to say ? An appearance on Big Brother hardly undermines a fascinating career, and Russell was one of the early explorers of digital film making, many years before the likes of Michael Mann (but maybe without such positive results!)
I agree with Deckard, Altered States is a cracking movie. Having seen it when it was first released I recently bought the video and it is a masterful assemblage of amazing visuals allied to a fantastic choice of classical music, something Ken has always been rather good at. The story is a real comic book caper – Carlos Castenada meets An American Werewolf in London, with William Hurt making his movie debut as Professor of Abnormal Psychology, Eddie Jessup. Brilliant.
Go to Comment
Best film by each of these directors over 2 years ago
What fun! here’s my ha’penny’s worth…
Fellini – Night of Cabiria
Bergman – The Virgin Spring
Truffaut – The 400 Blows
Renoir – The Grand Illusion
Herzog – Aguire: Wrath of God
Godard – Alphaville
Antonioni – The Passenger
Bresson – The Trial of Joan of Arc
Hitchcock – Rear Window
Bunuel – Exterminating Angel
Lang – The Big Heat
Tarkovsky – Solaris
Altman – M.A.S.H
De Sica – Bicycle Thieves
Polanski – Repulsion
Wenders – Paris, Texas
Melville – Bob Le Flambeur
Kubrick – 2001: A Space Odyssey
Go to Comment
Ive realized something about Jean-Luc Godard over 2 years ago
If we’re going to go for a pop music / Godard comparison, there are far better examples than Lennon / Godard. How about Scott Walker? He begins with seminal pop a la Walker Brothers, goes through the more complex, multi-layered productions during the late 60s early 70s, wobbles a bit in the late seventies, and then gives us the more abstract Climate of the Hunter, Tilt and The Drift.
Walker "compares his technique of assembling images that are sometimes seemingly disparate from each other and unconnected into short blocks of text to that of ‘a general, assembling troops on the battlefield’ " – quoted from wikipedia.
Go to Comment
Last movie you saw and rate it over 2 years ago
Casablanca 7.2 / 10
Go to Comment
Alcohol and Film over 2 years ago
If a director drank heavily and was affected in his/ her work, would an appreciation of their art be improved by partaking in an alchoholic beverage prior to and during the movie?
Sam Peckinpah called himself “a working alchoholic”; he drank hard and abused drugs. Are his films better after downing a few whiskies and snortinng a few lines of cocaine? Or are they just not very good anyway?
Go to Comment