Clement Greenberg thought purity meant that the medium would be about itself. This suggests that François Truffaut’s film Day for Night might be pure cinema. I’m surprised no one mentioned Errol Morris as conforming with the wiki definition posted earlier.
Jesse M might be warning us about paralysis by analysis, but I like the idea of a liminaliterous perspective. It gives one a new context or reference to establish a point of view.
Zach Cheney: Are you saying Godard’s work is still in the “Sisyphus-like existence called the present”?
Maintaining a state of permanent liminality seems problematic in that, over time, a film could be considered transitional and be placed on a linear narrative (film history) or clustered within a movement (art history).
Would Godard’s Alphaville fit in a genre called avant-garde?
Kinda fits Greenberg’s definition:
….most important function of the avant-garde was not to “experiment,” but to find a path along which it would be possible to keep culture moving in the midst of ideological confusion and violence.
The Alpha 60’s mission was to destroy culture – Godard’ narrative was “to keep culture moving in the midst of ideological confusion and violence.”
Criterion called it “A singular work in film history…”
This is one of many historical “one -offs” such as Terrence Malick’s Day’s of Heaven (a must see) and Malcolm Lowry’s Under the Volcano (a must read).
Akerman herself referred to the singular-ness of it when she said in a January 16, 2009 NYT phone interview: “I sometimes think I should have made it after many other films, at the end of my career.”
It is an example of something I believe: An artist needs to know, by way of their creation, they are alone in the world.
Representative of his style going forward. His style takes some getting used to – I see it as sort of anti-narrative.
Mystery Train and Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai are my two favorites.
The structure of the film conforms with some minimalist precepts. The minimalist maxims in the visual arts are: primary structures, multiple repetitive units, and randomness.
If you bend those around to the film, you get:
primary structures = parent child
multiple repetitive units = her day
randomness = the violence
So I am saying that the bedroom scene is random, which means the film isn’t building to violence. I think people are making too much of the daily order of her life into being ominous. I think that is hindsight (or reading the others notes).
I’m looking at this as an epistemological thread. We are just trying to push the boundaries of our knowledge. i.e. “think-off”
Looking at boundaries may cause them to change – the concept of liminality may be somewhat tautological – it is feeding in on itself – maybe once looked at, all boundaries become blurred.
FWIW:
Perception is corrupt because of the way consciousness is formed (if one believes in memory loop theory). Language only refers to the other senses; therefore, language’s descriptive power must also be corrupt.
One definition of liminality might be: slicing & dicing to a point where one can not see to agree ;-)
“…saying that implies that any film can or should be reduced to one simple thing or idea.”
As many different ways one can perceive an artwork as definitive is what makes a specific piece of art great. I made my case for Jeanne Dielmann as minimalist – if someone wants to make a case for liminality, I’d love to hear it !
Zach, are you going to participate or are you just harvesting stuff?
Under the Volcano – read the book, couldn’t finish the movie
Criterion had it correct when they described it as unadaptable:
“John Huston’s ambitious tackling of Malcolm Lowry’s towering “unadaptable” novel…”
The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum is there for its historical significance –
in social terms, the film is Schlöndorff and von Trotta’s Alphaville – if you were around during 1975 you definitely know this film captures the atmosphere of the time: “….stinging commentary on state power, individual freedom, and media manipulation.”
The Hit is there because, although it wasn’t Frears first movie, it was the beginning of a successful string of movies.
“….this girl has stayed a virgin for about 20 years, then goes out with a guy she eventually falls in love with, doesn’t have sex with him after months of dating, but just randomly decides to have sex with a guy at a party…”
There is an important concept here about artists, philosophers, etc.
If they comment on what the herd is doing or thinking, that doesn’t mean they condone or participate in it.
Nietzsche’s supremacy theories were observations – I’ve researched this Nazi link and never found where there was a link in Hitler’s background – the link is post-facto.
A really good recent example of the reverse:
Ever see the bumper sticker “I shop therefore I am”?
That came from conceptual artist Barbara Kruger – it was a comment on consumerism usurped by shoppers – she wasn’t telling people to shop.
Another good example was the Clash’s song Rock the Casbah
That was used as an anthem by US soldiers in the first gulf war
Joe Strummer said that it was meant to be an antiwar song.
Misinterpreting these things by the herd is sometimes intentionally anti-intellectual. If one is interested in art and culture one needs to be aware of that propensity, which means keeping the facts straight.
Btw, the philosopher most linked to the Nazis was Martin Heidegger.
“…astonishingly beautiful images ever filmed, and its loose narrative that leads one to understand everyday life..”
Ratcatcher was sort of in that vein – not a milestone, but of the 600 films I will watch within 3 years, it will be one of the smaller films I will remember when I look down the list.
Breaking Barriers: Borders and Beyond
Liminality in Cinematic Media
San Francisco State University
October 14-17, 2009
Plenary Sessions
Boundaries, borders, and limits signify separation between spaces—physical, conceptual, and otherwise. Cinema as a medium exemplifies and embodies resistance to boundaries. Since its advent film form has incessantly flirted with what lies beyond its porous borders traversing boundaries between narrative and non-narrative, documentary and fiction, art and science, humanism and exploitation.
As liminality connotes limits, how are these limits crossed and what are the results? In what ways might the category of liminality be productive to critical discourse and the creative enterprise? How are traditional cinema forms being challenged by blurred and traversed boundaries? What are discursive, spatial, temporal, sexual, cultural, political, aesthetic, metaphysical, ethical, and epistemological expressions of liminality within and related to cinema? How can curation and archival work cultivate and historicize liminality? How is film scholarship done from liminality?
The Greek said:
The carpenter makes the object – he knows most of the object
The owner uses the object – he knows the object.
The artist imitates the object – he knows least of the object.
Lying implies intent – it is not an artist’s intent to mislead.
An artist essentializes an object working with the limitations of a medium.
The limitations are one of the things that causes creativity and makes art something more than mimetic – more than the window/mirror analogy implies….
The Greek (I can’t keep them differentiated so I just call all of them “the Greek”: Plato, Socrates, Aristotle [not in this context, but could also be referencing Herodotus or Thucydides] ) is providing contrast. and a basis for the belief by many philosophers (e.g. Kant) that, in order for something to be art, it must be useless i.e. serve no purpose.
Did you see manufactured landscapes?
The photog was trying to decide if it was art or a document.
My conclusion was that b/c it was mimetic, it was not art.
If it had been done in B&W, maybe art.
“That being said: How can you ever know something is true?”
If one believes in memory loop theory (Bright Air, Brilliant Fire 1992) and that all memories are false, perception is corrupt. Language only refers to the other senses; therefore, language’s descriptive power must also be corrupt.
There can be no such thing as truth because you have no way to perceive an absolute – all perceptions and references thereto, are false.
What I find amusing is the “perfect movie list”. Even if you came up with a criteria, you would never get everyone to agree – everyone’s perception (interpretation) of the criteria would be different.
Bobby’s right, it would be helpful to read a liminality paper.
“I’m planning to present a paper in the panel you listed above…”
Krzysztof Kieslowski’s films in my queue: Blue, Red, Double Life of Veronique, Camera Buff – will move them up in time to read a paper.
Questions on pure cinema over 3 years ago
Clement Greenberg thought purity meant that the medium would be about itself. This suggests that François Truffaut’s film Day for Night might be pure cinema. I’m surprised no one mentioned Errol Morris as conforming with the wiki definition posted earlier.
Go to Comment
Liminality and Cinematic Media over 3 years ago
Jesse M might be warning us about paralysis by analysis, but I like the idea of a liminaliterous perspective. It gives one a new context or reference to establish a point of view.
Zach Cheney: Are you saying Godard’s work is still in the “Sisyphus-like existence called the present”?
Maintaining a state of permanent liminality seems problematic in that, over time, a film could be considered transitional and be placed on a linear narrative (film history) or clustered within a movement (art history).
Would Godard’s Alphaville fit in a genre called avant-garde?
Kinda fits Greenberg’s definition:
….most important function of the avant-garde was not to “experiment,” but to find a path along which it would be possible to keep culture moving in the midst of ideological confusion and violence.
The Alpha 60’s mission was to destroy culture – Godard’ narrative was “to keep culture moving in the midst of ideological confusion and violence.”
Go to Comment
Jeanne Dielman, A Woman over 3 years ago
Criterion called it “A singular work in film history…”
This is one of many historical “one -offs” such as Terrence Malick’s Day’s of Heaven (a must see) and Malcolm Lowry’s Under the Volcano (a must read).
Akerman herself referred to the singular-ness of it when she said in a January 16, 2009 NYT phone interview: “I sometimes think I should have made it after many other films, at the end of my career.”
It is an example of something I believe: An artist needs to know, by way of their creation, they are alone in the world.
Go to Comment
What are your thoughts of Stranger than Paradise? over 3 years ago
Representative of his style going forward. His style takes some getting used to – I see it as sort of anti-narrative.
Mystery Train and Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai are my two favorites.
Go to Comment
Jeanne Dielman, A Woman over 3 years ago
The structure of the film conforms with some minimalist precepts. The minimalist maxims in the visual arts are: primary structures, multiple repetitive units, and randomness.
If you bend those around to the film, you get:
primary structures = parent child
multiple repetitive units = her day
randomness = the violence
So I am saying that the bedroom scene is random, which means the film isn’t building to violence. I think people are making too much of the daily order of her life into being ominous. I think that is hindsight (or reading the others notes).
Go to Comment
Jeanne Dielman, A Woman over 3 years ago
Mike Spence:
Nonetheless, I did wonder during the film if I ever fold anything – and no, I don’t !
Go to Comment
Liminality and Cinematic Media over 3 years ago
Bobby Wise:
I’m looking at this as an epistemological thread. We are just trying to push the boundaries of our knowledge. i.e. “think-off”
Looking at boundaries may cause them to change – the concept of liminality may be somewhat tautological – it is feeding in on itself – maybe once looked at, all boundaries become blurred.
FWIW:
Perception is corrupt because of the way consciousness is formed (if one believes in memory loop theory). Language only refers to the other senses; therefore, language’s descriptive power must also be corrupt.
One definition of liminality might be: slicing & dicing to a point where one can not see to agree ;-)
“…saying that implies that any film can or should be reduced to one simple thing or idea.”
As many different ways one can perceive an artwork as definitive is what makes a specific piece of art great. I made my case for Jeanne Dielmann as minimalist – if someone wants to make a case for liminality, I’d love to hear it !
Zach, are you going to participate or are you just harvesting stuff?
Go to Comment
Most depressing film you have ever seen? over 3 years ago
Lilja 4-ever
Go to Comment
Criterions That Didn't Impress You over 3 years ago
Under the Volcano – read the book, couldn’t finish the movie
Criterion had it correct when they described it as unadaptable:
“John Huston’s ambitious tackling of Malcolm Lowry’s towering “unadaptable” novel…”
The Lost Honor of Katharina Blum is there for its historical significance –
in social terms, the film is Schlöndorff and von Trotta’s Alphaville – if you were around during 1975 you definitely know this film captures the atmosphere of the time: “….stinging commentary on state power, individual freedom, and media manipulation.”
The Hit is there because, although it wasn’t Frears first movie, it was the beginning of a successful string of movies.
Go to Comment
I Just Watched All the Real Girls over 3 years ago
“….this girl has stayed a virgin for about 20 years, then goes out with a guy she eventually falls in love with, doesn’t have sex with him after months of dating, but just randomly decides to have sex with a guy at a party…”
went to high school with her…..art imitates life
Go to Comment
what did you watch today? over 3 years ago
Bus 174
Go to Comment
Best of Camp/Kitsch? over 3 years ago
Any of John Waters films qualify – difficult to what is best – maybe ask which is worst !
Go to Comment
how movies lie over 3 years ago
Jarmusch’s films don’t lie in that way – Errol Morris’ don’t either.
Days of Glory was pretty blunt
Go to Comment
how movies lie over 3 years ago
“Surrealism does not lies- It reveals deeper truths.”
how do you know it reveals deeper truth, because they say so?
Go to Comment
Philosophy and films over 3 years ago
////It’s ironic that Nietzsche, linked to the Nazis\\\\\
don’t think so…please post link to thus
Go to Comment
Philosophy and films over 3 years ago
There is an important concept here about artists, philosophers, etc.
If they comment on what the herd is doing or thinking, that doesn’t mean they condone or participate in it.
Nietzsche’s supremacy theories were observations – I’ve researched this Nazi link and never found where there was a link in Hitler’s background – the link is post-facto.
A really good recent example of the reverse:
Ever see the bumper sticker “I shop therefore I am”?
That came from conceptual artist Barbara Kruger – it was a comment on consumerism usurped by shoppers – she wasn’t telling people to shop.
Go to Comment
Philosophy and films over 3 years ago
Another good example was the Clash’s song Rock the Casbah
That was used as an anthem by US soldiers in the first gulf war
Joe Strummer said that it was meant to be an antiwar song.
Misinterpreting these things by the herd is sometimes intentionally anti-intellectual. If one is interested in art and culture one needs to be aware of that propensity, which means keeping the facts straight.
Btw, the philosopher most linked to the Nazis was Martin Heidegger.
MSV:allurism ? couldn’t find that anywhere
Go to Comment
Philosophy and films over 3 years ago
Yes, too confusing !
The thing about Hitler was that he wasn’t keen on surrounding himself with intellectuals, he had his own peculiar world view.
Go to Comment
best British films of the last 25 years over 3 years ago
Couple of my fav Mike Leigh films made the list
Oldman’s Nil by Mouth also made it.
Also ratcatcher…
Go to Comment
best British films of the last 25 years over 3 years ago
“…astonishingly beautiful images ever filmed, and its loose narrative that leads one to understand everyday life..”
Ratcatcher was sort of in that vein – not a milestone, but of the 600 films I will watch within 3 years, it will be one of the smaller films I will remember when I look down the list.
Go to Comment
best British films of the last 25 years over 3 years ago
This Is England – absolutny !
Go to Comment
Liminality and Cinematic Media over 3 years ago
Breaking Barriers: Borders and Beyond
Liminality in Cinematic Media
San Francisco State University
October 14-17, 2009
Plenary Sessions
Boundaries, borders, and limits signify separation between spaces—physical, conceptual, and otherwise. Cinema as a medium exemplifies and embodies resistance to boundaries. Since its advent film form has incessantly flirted with what lies beyond its porous borders traversing boundaries between narrative and non-narrative, documentary and fiction, art and science, humanism and exploitation.
As liminality connotes limits, how are these limits crossed and what are the results? In what ways might the category of liminality be productive to critical discourse and the creative enterprise? How are traditional cinema forms being challenged by blurred and traversed boundaries? What are discursive, spatial, temporal, sexual, cultural, political, aesthetic, metaphysical, ethical, and epistemological expressions of liminality within and related to cinema? How can curation and archival work cultivate and historicize liminality? How is film scholarship done from liminality?
Go to Comment
Liminality and Cinematic Media over 3 years ago
The website seems to be a WIP.
Here’s the Antonioni I want to attend:
http://bePhenomenology and Aesthetics: Noetic Liminality
Between the Immanent and the Transcendent
Chair: Zach Cheney
—“Liminal Plotspaces in Antonioni’s Late Neorealist Films”
Niels Niessen
Go to Comment
best British films of the last 25 years over 3 years ago
British is the adjective and demonym associated with Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
banal1: the list is on the Auteurs’ home page
well it was, now I can’t find it but I think it was dated the 30th
Go to Comment
how movies lie over 3 years ago
The Greek said:
The carpenter makes the object – he knows most of the object
The owner uses the object – he knows the object.
The artist imitates the object – he knows least of the object.
Go to Comment
how movies lie over 3 years ago
Lying implies intent – it is not an artist’s intent to mislead.
An artist essentializes an object working with the limitations of a medium.
The limitations are one of the things that causes creativity and makes art something more than mimetic – more than the window/mirror analogy implies….
Go to Comment
how movies lie over 3 years ago
The Greek (I can’t keep them differentiated so I just call all of them “the Greek”: Plato, Socrates, Aristotle [not in this context, but could also be referencing Herodotus or Thucydides] ) is providing contrast. and a basis for the belief by many philosophers (e.g. Kant) that, in order for something to be art, it must be useless i.e. serve no purpose.
Did you see manufactured landscapes?
The photog was trying to decide if it was art or a document.
My conclusion was that b/c it was mimetic, it was not art.
If it had been done in B&W, maybe art.
Go to Comment
how movies lie over 3 years ago
“That being said: How can you ever know something is true?”
If one believes in memory loop theory (Bright Air, Brilliant Fire 1992) and that all memories are false, perception is corrupt. Language only refers to the other senses; therefore, language’s descriptive power must also be corrupt.
There can be no such thing as truth because you have no way to perceive an absolute – all perceptions and references thereto, are false.
What I find amusing is the “perfect movie list”. Even if you came up with a criteria, you would never get everyone to agree – everyone’s perception (interpretation) of the criteria would be different.
Go to Comment
Liminality and Cinematic Media over 3 years ago
Bobby’s right, it would be helpful to read a liminality paper.
“I’m planning to present a paper in the panel you listed above…”
“…his (Godard) status as a white male..”Krzysztof Kieslowski’s films in my queue: Blue, Red, Double Life of Veronique, Camera Buff – will move them up in time to read a paper.
????
Go to Comment
how movies lie over 3 years ago
I would call a documentary that lies, propaganda – but I would be looking at the intent to back up my claim of propaganda.
Go to Comment