Hi. It should be viewable everywhere, but it’s only free for a limited time. And something I realized only recently is that you can watch The Auteurs films with relatively slow internet connections by pre-loading them (click on play and then pause and it will keep on loading) and then coming back after a while. Worth a try if that’s the issue.
Q – What inspired you to make this film in this manner?
A – It actually came to me in a flash one day. I was sitting on a bench in downtown Winnipeg, listening to a long freight train crossing a trestle. The title popped into my head, and then the film, and the project around it, sort of unfolded in front of me. Then I just had to spend five years putting the pieces together, in a sense.
Q – Did you write the poems before deciding to make the film?
A – The order was a mix, with some films the poem came first, with others it was filming that started the process. But over-all they were part of a whole, seamless project, from beginning to end. I mean, they don’t feel separate to me. (In case you don’t know it, the Trains of Winnipeg project spanned 2001 thru 2006, with much of it available for free here: www.trainsofwinnipeg.com).
Q – The film stands out as a reflective and contemplative look at a city, almost like a city symphony, yet dwelves into a much more personal space.
A- I love the comparison to the city symphony sub-genre. Thanks for that. I think it also overlaps with the ‘diary film’ experimental genre, thus the ‘personal space’.
Q – Also, as this film was made in 2004, what do you feel about this project 5 years later?
A – In the last few years I’ve really plugged myself into my current project, Utopia Suite (which I plan to work on until the year 2020). But with now I’m loving this excuse to re-visit ‘ToW’. There are a few things I’d do differently (of course, if you’re progressing then this is normal – but this is hard to be objective about because some of my interests have evolved since then). I’m very process-oriented in my work, and so I’m very happy to look back at this effort because I feel that I followed the process in an honest and clear way, a way that resulted in a unique work in some ways (at least that’s what I was attempting).
Q – How alike was the resulting film to your initial vision.
A – You have to follow the work and let it assert itself in-the-making, and this is especially true with experimental/avant garde/hand made filmmaking, but I FEEL as though the beginning vision and the results were very similar.
Q – Once again, thanks for sharing and I hope more see this film (Also, it has a very unjustified rating on IMDB).
A – You’re welcome! (And as for those ratings, they go with the territory, and I’ve also benefited form ‘star’ ratings – to make art it helps to have a good sense of humor, a thick hide, and a lot of stubbornness helps too.)
No problem. Don’t know how much depth you want to go into, but if you’re really keen:
I did quite a long interview recently with Scott (“Critical Cinema”) MacDonald which is in his new book, “Adventures of Perception – Cinema as Exploration” (UCPress, http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/11304.php ). It also includes an essay on Trains of Winnipeg along with films by Rick Hancox and Matthias Müller. Plus interview chapters with Gina Kim, Claude Nuridsany & Marie Pérennou (Microcosmos), David Gatten, and Karen Cooper.
Also just published: “Place – 13 Essays 13 Filmmakers 1 City” (ed. Cecilia Araneda, Winnipeg Film Group: http://www.winnipegfilmgroup.com/place.aspx ), with an essay chapter by Larissa Fan about both Trains of Winnipeg and Utopia Suite. Plus essays on Winnipeg directors Norma Bailey, Jeffrey Erbach, Sean Garrity, Noam Gonick, Greg Hanec, Paula Kelly, John Kozak, Guy Maddin, Winston Washington Moxam, John Paizs, Jeff Solylo, and Caelum Vatnsdal.
Re. Greg: what an amazing talent. I’d love to work with him. For some reason I bump into him on the sidewalk every six months or so. Maybe I’m meant to ask him.
**For those who don’t know: John (The Weakerthans) Samson was one of my musical collaborators on the Trains of Winnipeg CD, and therefore on several of the film’s soundtracks.
I think the music analogy is a really good one (something I definitely had in mind while making the film). I think of this kind of work as a kind of ‘visual music’, where watching it can FEEL like listening to music.
But to extend that a little further: I think, like some of the best music, that films of this kind benefit from repeated viewings. If you think about it, because film history’s been so dominated by theatrical presentation, we still (habitually) place a lot of emphasis on the ‘single view’. Now that we have growing film libraries at home, and via The Auteurs, this model seems increasingly out-moded. It’s time to place more demand on films, and in return to be willing to give them more than one try (again, as we’re long accustomed to with music).
And I really like the ‘phasing in and out’ comment. I was at a sound art festival once where Christophe Charles encouraged the audience to talk during his (amazing) performance, if they felt like it (no one took him up on it)! He was trying to encourage an alternative approach to his work. I was hoping that this film would work in ‘art cinema’ culture (in a single, theatrical viewing with at least some ‘narrative thrust’, thus the train journey idea — but also to allow for the contemplative space that I think you’re describing (which is part of going on a long train trip).
Each film the soundtrack’s were created in interesting collaborations with the composers (Jason Tait, Christine Fellows, and Emily Goodden). The orders were different in each case, and we worked in living rooms, sound studios, band rehearsal spaces (above a pool hall), and I walked around a lot pointing my microphone at trains. The main exception is the soundtrack for ‘Hitler! (Revisited)’, by sound artist Steve Bates, where we created both works largely independently, and then they came together almost as if my magic.
To-date, it has been very hard to distribute this genre of work, which is why I’m excited to be included in The Auteurs. Trains of Winnipeg screened at some general festivals (like Rotterdam), and then it mostly toured around playing at festivals (and cinematheques and galleries) that specialize in experimental/avant garde film, or at media art festivals, a sound art festival, a literature festival, and at several innovative documentary events. It’s had good quality distribution since then to exhibtors (via the CFMDC.org and EMAF.de), BUT arranging for DVD publication was very frustrating. And now… I think this outcome is MUCH better in the long run, and I hope this will happen for many more works from this part of the film world.
Here’s a sampling of works from my end of the film world that are currently listed on The Auteurs (but not yet playable):
WAVELENGTH, Michael Snow: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/2085
NOSTALGIA, Hollis Frampton: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/2531
DE MOUVEMENT, Richard Kerr: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/20297
TAMALPAIS, Chris Kennedy: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/4091
ALL FALL DOWN, Philip Hoffman: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/20485
MOTHLIGHT, Stan Brakhage:http://www.theauteurs.com/films/3894
THE HEART OF THE WORLD, Guy Maddin: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/2969
RR, James Benning: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/100
ONE WAY BOOGIE WOOGIE, James Benning: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/3116
LANDSCAPE SUICIDE, James Benning: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/21407
SCORPIO RISING, Kenneth Anger: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/3724
I think the music analogy is a really good one (something I definitely had in mind while making the film). I think of this kind of work as a form of ‘visual music’, where watching it can FEEL like listening to music.
But to extend that a little further: I think, like some of the best music, that films of this kind benefit from repeated viewings. If you think about it, because film history’s been so dominated by theatrical presentation, we still (habitually) place a lot of emphasis on the ‘single view’. Now that we have growing film libraries at home, and via The Auteurs, this model seems increasingly out-moded. It’s time to place more demand on films, and in return to be willing to give them more than one try (again, as we’re long accustomed to with music).
And I really like the ‘phasing in and out’ comment. I was at a sound art festival once where Christophe Charles encouraged the audience to talk during his (amazing) performance, if they felt like it (no one took him up on it)! He was trying to encourage an alternative approach to his work. I was hoping that this film would work in ‘art cinema’ culture (in a single, theatrical viewing with at least some ‘narrative thrust’, thus the train journey idea — but also to allow for the contemplative space that I think you’re describing (which is part of going on a long train trip).
In each film the soundtracks were created in interesting collaborations with the composers (Jason Tait, Christine Fellows, and Emily Goodden). The orders were different in each case, and we worked in living rooms, sound studios, band rehearsal spaces (above a pool hall), and I walked around a lot pointing my microphone at trains. The main exception is the soundtrack for ‘Hitler! (Revisited)’, by sound artist Steve Bates, where we created both works largely independently, and then they came together almost as if my magic.
To-date, it has been very hard to distribute this genre of work, which is why I’m excited to be included in The Auteurs. Trains of Winnipeg screened at some general festivals (like Rotterdam), and then it mostly toured around playing at festivals (and cinematheques and galleries) that specialize in experimental/avant garde film, or at media art festivals, a sound art festival, a literature festival, and at several innovative documentary events. It’s had good quality distribution since then to exhibtors (via the CFMDC.org and EMAF.de), BUT arranging for DVD publication was very frustrating. And now… I think this outcome is MUCH better in the long run, and I hope this will happen for many more works from this part of the film world.
Here’s a sampling of titles from my end of filmland that are currently listed on The Auteurs (but not yet playable):
WAVELENGTH, Michael Snow: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/2085
NOSTALGIA, Hollis Frampton: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/2531
DE MOUVEMENT, Richard Kerr: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/20297
TAMALPAIS, Chris Kennedy: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/4091
ALL FALL DOWN, Philip Hoffman: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/20485
MOTHLIGHT, Stan Brakhage:http://www.theauteurs.com/films/3894
THE HEART OF THE WORLD, Guy Maddin: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/2969
RR, James Benning: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/100
ONE WAY BOOGIE WOOGIE, James Benning: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/3116
LANDSCAPE SUICIDE, James Benning: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/21407
SCORPIO RISING, Kenneth Anger: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/3724
Re. Godspeed You! Black Emperor: I learned about them just after I’d made the film, and it’s a flattering connection (and maybe the best band name ever). And I did perform work from this project once in their cafe-club in Montreal.
I love many dramatic narrative films too (see my TA list), but there’s no question that there’s an exciting wave of non-narrative films coming into view now. Until recently, it’s been a more-or-less hidden part of cinematic history. Works you see in college and certain festivals and never again. And it’s all changing now.
To be completely clear about the distro challenges: with the film’s inclusion here, I couldn’t be happier about how it’s turned out (but thanks for the good luck, it’s always useful).
And you jogged my memory. From a review of the Trains of Winnipeg CD:
Joey Sweeney, Philadelphia Weekly: “Top 5 of the Moment – With a musical backing that splits the difference between that sort of Godspeed You! Black Emperor pensiveness and a more propulsive indie inspiration, Holden’s poems are laid out in a great old fogy/young man voice that’ll go down especially well with fans of the blowing plastic bag scene in American Beauty. Trains of Winnipeg is that kind of party.”
Some of you have had personal attachments to the film since it was premiered in 2004 (thanks to Chris). Others have recently seen it for the first time in late 2009. I’m interested in any and all reactions to the film itself, of course, but especially in observations or questions that highlight the differences between then and now – certain key things have grown, changed, or developed in the last five years (I shot a fair bit of the film in Kodachrome Super 8, for example, which is now a dead medium).
The long-troubled artist-made or independent film distribution situation versus the promise of web distribution + art gallery exhibition is another interesting topic. I assume The Auteurs is just going to get better and better in terms of formats and quality. What’s it going to look like in five years?
(First of all, thanks for the kind words where expressed!)
In reverse order:
Brenda: I’m with you in hoping that exposure to the FULL history of cinema will create a desire in students to see at least some films in their original form. I hope that certain work, seen as projected “real film” in a dark theatre, will come to be valued as a rough equivalent to the live music performance (where few would argue that there’s no point, it’s the same as the recording). Audiences will continue to develop their “cinematic viewing chops” over time, and really I think this is all just getting started, it’s still early days for cinema.
Chris: you’re right, I DID make the film with what I called “scaling” in mind, I wanted it to work on a large screen in 35mm and also on tiny screens, without “translation” as you put it. I think you’re right that it’s embedded in this work, but not in some others. And this exhibition variety mirrors the melange of materials I used. It was utopian in a sense (or maybe a bit crazy), trying to blend three film gauges and nine video formats into a “whole” work. But there are works I’d like to make in future that would only work as shown in a traditional cinema, and others in a gallery, and still others that need the capabilities of the internet to “function.” There’s no question for me that certain very “filmic” works would lose all meaning if seen on video, it would be like hearing a symphony on a tiny transistor radio, or worse in some cases where they would all but “disappear”. But in other cases, we might be surprised as resolution increases in the next few years. We’ll be streaming (real) HD soon, and maybe 4K after that, and in ten years all bets are off. With the “must be seen as film” films you’re describing, the real problem is the disappearing projection equipment, where even the truest film purists just won’t be able to get spare parts at some point. That makes me want to cry sometimes, but I want to make art and I want to use whatever I can get my hands on to make it.
Brenda: thanks very much for this: “a meditation on time, death, the extraordinary randomness of experience.” Sweet music to my ears!
Alex: your growing up on the flat-as-a-pancake prairie of southern Saskatchewan, far from the art cinema houses (yet in a very exciting visual context, with all that light as far as the eye can see) brings you to film-making and film exhibition with a special perspective. If not for the curvature of the earth, you might have been able to see us in Winnipeg in the distance, down the rail line, but as you say the isolation is something that’s being transformed now by technology. These days, some of your younger equivalents will be combining “big sky watching” with watching films on The Auteurs. Quite a difference. I know, for myself, I grew up in a small city and saw my first experimental film when I was 21. It changed my life.
Dave: thanks for starting the conversation on such a quality, personal note. VERY nice to hear how the film’s become tied to your own memories, and especially that the work might still resonate at 32 below. We do seem to have mirrored experiences in recent years.
For those who don’t know, Dave’s run the Winnipeg Film Group’s Cinematheque for many years, where I first test-screened the the film outside of the lab. So he was one of the first people to see it, and now in my mind he’s very much part of its history. He’s one of those “programmer heroes” out there, keeping an independent cinematheque alive despite huge challenges, and showing amazing work all the while.
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One interesting strain that’s running through some of the comments so far is about the re-mixing of the personal and the formal, which is something I thought about a lot while I made these films. I tried to work with the personal, my own memories, feelings, biography, as though they were “raw material” (how can I stretch this, texture it, what will happen if I place it here); and I thought of the film’s formal elements, film stocks, video formats, how they physically or visually interacted with each other, their textures and tones, and their over-all structure, in emotional and personal terms (WHY is hand-made film-making important, why does making art with your mind AND body seem to work better, why are these issues so charged with emotion, are there different kinds of narrative arcs that naturally stem from different cultures)? Or, put another way, there’s something about moving image art that makes me want to approach everything optimistically, holistically. Maybe it’s the movement itself.
1. “ToW” is the abbreviation I use myself, so no problem.
2. “ROM” = “Royal Ontario Museum” in Toronto, for non-Canadian readers.
3. And Michael: nice use of “minoritarian!” I love having to look up a word, means I’m learning. On that note, one interesting thought I had this morning was that I know more about my own work than I did 24 hours ago. Thanks for that.
Also, I agree with Alex re. VHS: for myself, the “horse left the barn” about 25 years ago when people started watching videos instead of going to theatres. Not coincidentally, this coincided with a renewed interest in art cinema and then independent cinema thru the 80’s. But the video store selection remained artificially constricted, with work that didn’t find a commercial distributor left out of the system.
The web won’t solve everything overnight, and some problems are pretty damn hard to solve, but internet-based distribution of various kinds offers some better solutions than we’ve had to choose from in the recent past, with huge potential for growth from here on.
I also think it’s worth noting that if we think REALLY long term (in technological terms, say 25 years down the road), there are going to be big surprises in store, guaranteed. This is a short passage of time in human terms (never mind the planet or universe…), and some of the film works of today will be transferred to “future formats” that might actually “translate” them quite well, who knows? We don’t know what’s coming next, except that we know there will be more change.
In the shorter run, I think some of the film works we’re talking about will be shown in darkened gallery rooms (“blackened white rooms”). At least, I think there’s huge potential there too, as a parallel to the web, that’s already being explored. The simple act of asking a curator to place two rows of seats in a room where a cinema-based installation is being screened, considered too odd just a couple of years ago, is now creating a hybrid cinema/art space where I HOPE film will continue to be shown long term in its many forms, including those works that don’t function as any kind of video.
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Re. this broader use of the word “voice”: I think of this a lot to do with writing literary fiction (one part of my current project), but I’ve never thought of it to do with filmmaking for some reason. I think it’s an important perspective: all of the “language” (as Chris puts it) that goes into making a film, and especially a film-maker’s body of work, culminates in a recognizable (even if sometimes entirely visual) whole.
I think some of these questions are human/social, I mean not solely confined to cinema. I THINK people will always be drawn to (non-virtual) communal experiences. And to the “tactile” (in and out of quotations).
When I film with a film camera I look through the lens – the light bounces off surfaces (touches them) and enters my eyes, and I FEEL this in a way that seems tactile (it is, in a sense). When I use a video camera, I look at a tiny monitor, and this seems less tactile, there’s less physicality (it seems halfway between filming and “recording” sound). But I do use video cameras (quite happily) and when I do I sometimes try to add-in some sort of physical element to the making process, to make up for the loss of the thru-the-lens experience. And the reason I do this, is that it seems to produce better results. Engaging the mind + body (a crude way of putting it, it’s not a dichotomy) seems to use more of the whole mind.
Likewise, when we gather together, and “touch” things (cinema screens, or each other), we FEEL, and this transcends mere cleverness, and the habitual.
I made my last “film” with a mix of Super 8 film and a digital SLR (it includes a super-charged equivalent of a “motor drive”). In other words, I was “making video” while looking through a lens again, by using a still camera. Which felt very odd at first, but it worked.
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Re. optimism: it’s been interesting to read our references to the 80’s, and I remember how bleak things looked at the start of that decade. Then, a lot of things improved during that time, cinema included and partly because of the new “home video market.” For a while, there were amazing independent video stores (mostly long gone, but not all). I know that my favourite had a big impact on my life. Of course, I lived in Montreal at the time and so I also had access to several great cinemas showing the best films in the world as films, surrounded by lovely flesh-and-blood people. The mix was good, no question about it, but I can’t bring that back by wishing it was so.
Winter hit Toronto this week, and glowering out the window doesn’t seem to be changing that. So I look for today’s, this season’s, charms. (The Auteurs is one of them.)
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Jason: thanks for using the word “whippersnappers.”
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Note: I live in a city now that also has a fair amount of great cinemas, and lots of excellent festivals and galleries. So it’s still a great “mix.” Although a little less filmic.
Part of The Auteurs experience, for me, has been accessing the social media community that seems to hover around the films like a virtual storm of communication. The service is more than accessing the “films”, and its future potential (I’m just assuming there will be future developments in terms of formats, etc.), they’ve also done a lot of hard work creating a (very well designed) social experience, that’s wonderfully international – kind of utopian in fact (in the positive sense of the word, if that’s still allowed).
I think it might be interesting to talk about this, along with the presentation of the films. I realize not everyone’s into this yet (social media). But I think, soon, it will be like not owning a phone. And it will be connected, increasingly, to the experience of visual media art. It will “mediate” the experience of “film art”.
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A nice accident: after joining, and filling out my own membership info., and choosing my “Favorite Auteurs,” coincidentally (they’re displayed alphabetically) this is the order of the first six as they appear on-screen:
Bruce Baillie
James Benning
Ingmar Bergman
Stan Brakhage
Vittorio De Sica
Atom Egoyan
Ways cinema will (continue to) evolve, that will draw people together in one space for the communal experience we’ve all been expressing concern for:
1. by adding live elements to the screening experience, most obviously through live soundtrack performances and other collaborations with musicians/composers; but this will also expand (expanded cinema) to include MANY other live performative aspects; there are lots of contemporary examples of this, including at our amazing Images Festival here in Toronto, but it’s an explosively growing trend wherever cinema’s made.
2. by adding “liveness” to cinematic works, in other words making each viewing experience unique thru adding dynamic or interactive elements to how a film is seen (I’ve been experimenting by using both cinematic and web-creation tools, making works meant for cinema + gallery + web presentation, with dynamically controlled coding to produce liveness); this uniqueness is part of the allure of the live event, when we go to a live music concert it’s partly because of its one-time-only value (along with the attractiveness of the communal cultural experience).
3. other suggestions: __________________________?
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Alley: I’ve only recently become aware of the fascinating “sub-generation gap” you describe, which I think is partly defined by people who’ve grown up with “massively multiplayer online games” (MMOG’s), who have an embedded relationship with the internet that’s quite new and different than the web experience is for people who are… older than 25, approximately? Trying to predict what will happen to cinema in light of this new paradigm is especially hard.
And, I love the description of your truncated train hopping experiences. In researching the world of trains for the film, I came across many new things, the on-line world of trains buffs, contemporary hobo culture, specialist train graffiti artists, and of course the wide world of train hopping (which, among other things, seems to be a type of extreme sport – as it can be quite dangerous); but as you say so well, the attraction to the “larger world” is part of being human, and part of peoples’ love for cinema from the beginning.
The subject of sound has come up briefly, and this might be a good time to talk about it. Clearly there are some film-making greats who’ve focused mostly or entirely on cinema as visual art (and they feel almost invisible, and pissed at times). But cinema’s also about language (conventional use of the word), and sound (sub-divided into music and non-). My personal tendency, when I’m making anything, is to think in terms of the elements I’m bringing to the table. There has to be enough on the table. If there’s one thing, maybe visual only with no intertext or little narrative (I think there’s always a little – but that’s another debate), then of course that’s great IF that one element is really, really good (but it puts more strain on that element, using it on its own).
Or: with just spoken narration, the famous example I know that stretched the definition of “film” (a la Wikipedia):
“Blue is the twelfth and final feature film by director Derek Jarman, released just four months before his death by AIDS-related complications. Such complications had already rendered him partially blind at the time of the film’s release. The film was his last testament as a film-maker, and consists of a single shot of saturated blue colour filling the screen, as background to a soundtrack where Jarman’s and some of his favourite actors’ narration describes his life and vision.
“On its premiere, Channel 4 and BBC Radio 3 collaborated on a simultaneous broadcast so viewers could enjoy a stereo soundtrack. Radio 3 subsequently broadcast the soundtrack separately as a radio play and it was later released as a CD.
“On July 23, 2007 British distributor Artificial Eye released DVD tying Blue together with Glitterbug, a collage of Jarman’s Super 8 footage.”
(Another topic again: we can see how modularity has been part of cinematic experimentation throughout its history – just not in the cineplex.)
But back to “cell phones” (hopefully not for too long): I bought one a couple of years back (guess which one) that has a very good image, and especially good sound on headphones. I watched several movies on it right away, including ToW. The films that relied sufficiently on sound (sound design, soundscape, music and spoken words), or text, or character development (or a mix of these), came across very well. There’s no question it was weird, and still is for me: watching a “movie” in the palm of my hand. And I think a few of these films, especially some of the character dramas, didn’t benefit at all from larger screens (for me, a great character drama is still an important part of cinematic history, even if it doesn’t bring any visual richness to the screen).
Of course, there are other cinematic works that are ridiculous to watch in this way, many too obvious to list. But my first experience of this loss in translation was years ago, and was a wonderfully ridiculous example. When I was 15 the local 500 seat porn cinema was bought by an entrepreneur who turned it into an indie movie house. I headed down there and watched the first film I could see, which was “Doctor Zhivago.” Despite its “problems” (personally, when the full moon comes out I’m not moved to write poetry, I have more of werewolf response), I LOVED all those dazzling fields of daffodils in full filmic glory on a giant screen. This film had what we used to be call “sweep.” Then, a few years later, I watched it again on VHS and it had pretty close to ZERO value (for me) on what was then called the “small screen” (unless you analyzed its politics, but again another subject). So this film might have experienced a kind of death. It ONLY worked on a extra large screen, which it’s rarely going to enjoy ever again (you can sob or cheer, but I have a small sentimental streak that I’m not ashamed of).
So… my simple answer to some of this screen size stuff is: it depends on the film.
And I started this off talking about sound and then segued into thinking of film as a collection of important elements, in different mixes. The main undervalued (or at least less officially recognized) powerful element in cinema is sound. And I will say I thought of this a LOT while making ToW. In fact, as an experiment (while editing), I challenged myself by asking, “what would I do if all of these elements I’m mixing were different instruments in a musical composition (or group), including the moving image, how would that alter my process and the outcome?”
I tried to see the editing interface as a musical score (vertical + horizontal). In the end, I decided it was easier to think of the visuals as a whole “musical section,” which struck the balance I needed.
I think I mentioned “the habitual” somewhere above this too. Some habits are good and necessary, but we should also challenge them regularly, in every walk of life, to stay alive.
Tobias, re. seeing ToW in a less “intimate” space (the positive side of the headphones + laptop experience, I’m glad you mentioned it, although it’s intertwined with the accelerating generation gap issue): it’s been almost two years since I last saw this film in 35mm (Anthology Film Archives in NYC) and that part of the experience seems to be drifting into the past now, even for me. But it did seem to function well that way, while the print was traveling around. It was meant to be the primary way to see it, however modular a strategy I tried to embed in the work. The disc + web weren’t after thoughts, but intended to be complementary experiences, with their own values.
I’m assuming there will be more “extra large screen” viewing opportunities in the future, but my guess is that most of these (especially ten years from now+) won’t be from 35mm. Blu-ray, etc., etc.
Jason, re. “compensating by imagining how the experience [film watching] would be different in some supposedly ideal [viewing context]” + “how online distribution of films is likely to make the viewing experience even choppier and more interrupt-able:”
Attention span is a major issue. I know I don’t want to watch smaller screens for as long, without breaks. Not sure how this will play out, except that “web distribution” will soon include much larger and denser images, so that will change things again (as TV quickly becomes “TV” – funny how we’ve avoided mentioning television, which is sort of an elephant in the room).
But art gallery + museum exhibition has to be included in our thoughts, as we’re partly talking about film as “visual art” or “contemporary art” (or whatever you want to call it). These are the institutions that have traditionally shown art to the public. Even in the larger ones with cinematheques included, many of these have focused almost entirely on “art cinema” and have neglected to a large degree the work made by visual artists in film (but not video – “video art” is another elephant, man it’s getting crowded). This is changing rapidly, but it’s an issue that has to be acknowledged when we’re wondering why more people don’t know about “avant garde cinema” (etc.).
I’ve been lucky enough to see my own work looping in “white rooms”, including ToW, and it’s really interesting to see how this affects the same work, in yet another context; how it functions in a new playground.
Alex, re. “the venue had added resonance, as it’s a basement theatre beside the subway, so there are intermittent vibrations from the trains:” Man, I wish I’d been there!
Jason + Alex re. “watching horrors and comedies with an audience” + “It is that common laughter, or gasping shock that contributes so much to the experience:” I know that for myself, and I imagine for many other film-makers, sitting in the back row with a new film (I think of any genre), and experiencing those little audience shifts, whether audible, or “energetic,” or quasi-physical, is a significant part of assessing a new work. I guess we’ll lose some of this. But on the other hand, we couldn’t do THIS until very recently (and you can’t un-tie cinema’s growing pains from the rest of the techno shifts that are happening).
Brenda, re. “modularity in a way I find infinitely more satisfying (as an aesthetic experience):” I think it was you who first used the word “modular” here, and it’s a word that I seem to be saying more and more. I’m a bit obsessed with art structure. In my current project I’m thinking a lot about how structures in art and nature relate to each other, about dynamic and organic structures and how they function in an eco-system (which we’re understanding in new ways now), and how they might apply to a work of cinema or art.
“Network” was a sort of buzz word just a short while ago (back before “interactive”), and maybe “modular” should be next. It seems like “dynamic organic modularity” is (sort of…) what I’m aiming at now (I realize this sounds just a little silly, but it is how I think). And of course, the word “organic” has become loaded with freight, but we’ll have to do our best.
I’ve been using the term “dynamic cinema” a lot lately.
Alley, re. larger home screens: this seems inevitable, and I’m assuming The Auteurs might lead the way with their expertise in streaming. Surely growing bandwidths will equal larger and denser images, or maybe a choice of two or even three sizes, ranging up to 1080p? Without giving away any trade secrets, I’d be very curious what The Auteurs has planned for the next few years. Any hints?
One thing seems clear, at least in the short run: that some form of “rental” (either streaming or timed download) is the strategy that’s most likely to succeed. For myself, I say bring on the “nearly free economy” – like with iTunes, I don’t mind paying if it’s affordable, and I think this is where it’s all heading (obviously, alongside of the “free economy”, which is likely permanent and has brought many benefits).
I know many people who, given the chance, will choose to pay for things if they’re cheap enough and convenient to access. It’s better for artists, and so it’s better for people who want to see their art.
Thanks for asking. It’s called both “U Suite” and “Utopia Suite”, and much of it is collected at: usuite.org. I launched it in the summer of 2006, with events in Toronto at Images Festival, and in Amsterdam as a co-presentation of the Holland Festival and the International Film Festival Rotterdam.
The project has two names because it has twin themes: utopianism, and the letter “U”. I focused primarily on new forms of utopianism in the first chapter, which was just completed.
U Suite will continue to grow until 2020, with many “chapters” and segments within each chapter. They’re modular, meaning they can be re-mixed in different orders, but together they form one organic “suite” of works. It’s a cinema-based, literary and web project. It’s being shown in theatres, galleries, and on the web.
The current dynamic state of cinema is a useful metaphor that runs throughout the project (breaking down, re-forming). In fact, I’ll be experimenting with everything we’ve talked about so far in the Round Table over the next ten years, and combining this with short fictions, and a growing web-based collection of work.
A LOT of it will involve moving images, which for me is the definition of cinema.
Chris, re. “In reality I am motivated almost entirely by enthusiasm!” Me too. Asking for more just shows you care.
Chris & Alley, re. “tell us more about what you mean by ‘dynamic cinema.’”: hmmm… during U Suite’s Chapter 1 (2006 to 2009), while working and thinking about a renewed, process-oriented, utopianism, I started zeroing-in on organic + dynamic structures in nature and in cinema/art. How do ecosystems actually function (relates to some of the conversation above). How does cinema function? Especially now that it’s (partly) breaking out of the confines of the theatrical distribution model into so many new spaces?
I’m just beginning really, but most of the works so far have had some form of “dynamism” built into them (twin screen diptychs continually re-mixing as one example) and I think they all benefit from cyclical viewing, repeated in other words, moving beyond the beginning-middle-end-stop formula, etc. Think about how differently we listen to music! This is part of where cinema’s heading.
But then I started playing with hybrid blends of cinema-making and web creation tools (relatively crude and accessible ones like javascript + animated GIFs). One early result is ‘Ken Dryden’, which has been screened in traditional cinemas, looped in galleries, and is available in full on the web here: ken.utopiasuite.com. It takes around eight minutes for the work to loop once, and it’s different each time because the javascript instructs the page to randomly select, from several choices, which “animated GIF” is displayed in its part of the screen – a bit technical for some, but the point is that it’s dynamic, always changing, and yet (I hope) it’s also “organic”, it’s one whole.
And of course, all of this is continually re-mixing with the soundtrack (designed by Rotterdam-based composer Oscar van Dillen, also available here as an mp3 download: http://cyclopspress.com/KenDryden/kendryden.mp3).
U Suite’s chapter 2 (2009 to 2012) will go quite a bit further into this idea of “dynamic cinema”.
I don’t think there’s any doubt that expanding the breadth of the kinds of cinema people have access to will change the history of film-making. So far, we’ve only been exposed to a fraction of what’s possible (however good some of that’s been). That’s part of the excitement of cinema, that it’s so young.
And part of what’s going to happen is to do with world culture. The tools of film production coming into the hands of the people, all over the world. New voices. New eyes.
Q & A's over 2 years ago
I’m just saying: if anyone has questions about the film, I’ll be happy to answer them here. (-Clive)
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Q & A's over 2 years ago
Hi. It should be viewable everywhere, but it’s only free for a limited time. And something I realized only recently is that you can watch The Auteurs films with relatively slow internet connections by pre-loading them (click on play and then pause and it will keep on loading) and then coming back after a while. Worth a try if that’s the issue.
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Q & A's over 2 years ago
Hi and thanks for the kind words.
Q – What inspired you to make this film in this manner?
A – It actually came to me in a flash one day. I was sitting on a bench in downtown Winnipeg, listening to a long freight train crossing a trestle. The title popped into my head, and then the film, and the project around it, sort of unfolded in front of me. Then I just had to spend five years putting the pieces together, in a sense.
Q – Did you write the poems before deciding to make the film?
A – The order was a mix, with some films the poem came first, with others it was filming that started the process. But over-all they were part of a whole, seamless project, from beginning to end. I mean, they don’t feel separate to me. (In case you don’t know it, the Trains of Winnipeg project spanned 2001 thru 2006, with much of it available for free here: www.trainsofwinnipeg.com).
Q – The film stands out as a reflective and contemplative look at a city, almost like a city symphony, yet dwelves into a much more personal space.
A- I love the comparison to the city symphony sub-genre. Thanks for that. I think it also overlaps with the ‘diary film’ experimental genre, thus the ‘personal space’.
Q – Also, as this film was made in 2004, what do you feel about this project 5 years later?
A – In the last few years I’ve really plugged myself into my current project, Utopia Suite (which I plan to work on until the year 2020). But with now I’m loving this excuse to re-visit ‘ToW’. There are a few things I’d do differently (of course, if you’re progressing then this is normal – but this is hard to be objective about because some of my interests have evolved since then). I’m very process-oriented in my work, and so I’m very happy to look back at this effort because I feel that I followed the process in an honest and clear way, a way that resulted in a unique work in some ways (at least that’s what I was attempting).
Q – How alike was the resulting film to your initial vision.
A – You have to follow the work and let it assert itself in-the-making, and this is especially true with experimental/avant garde/hand made filmmaking, but I FEEL as though the beginning vision and the results were very similar.
Q – Once again, thanks for sharing and I hope more see this film (Also, it has a very unjustified rating on IMDB).
A – You’re welcome! (And as for those ratings, they go with the territory, and I’ve also benefited form ‘star’ ratings – to make art it helps to have a good sense of humor, a thick hide, and a lot of stubbornness helps too.)
Thanks for your interesting questions.
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Q & A's over 2 years ago
No problem. Don’t know how much depth you want to go into, but if you’re really keen:
I did quite a long interview recently with Scott (“Critical Cinema”) MacDonald which is in his new book, “Adventures of Perception – Cinema as Exploration” (UCPress, http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/11304.php ). It also includes an essay on Trains of Winnipeg along with films by Rick Hancox and Matthias Müller. Plus interview chapters with Gina Kim, Claude Nuridsany & Marie Pérennou (Microcosmos), David Gatten, and Karen Cooper.
Also just published: “Place – 13 Essays 13 Filmmakers 1 City” (ed. Cecilia Araneda, Winnipeg Film Group: http://www.winnipegfilmgroup.com/place.aspx ), with an essay chapter by Larissa Fan about both Trains of Winnipeg and Utopia Suite. Plus essays on Winnipeg directors Norma Bailey, Jeffrey Erbach, Sean Garrity, Noam Gonick, Greg Hanec, Paula Kelly, John Kozak, Guy Maddin, Winston Washington Moxam, John Paizs, Jeff Solylo, and Caelum Vatnsdal.
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Q & A's over 2 years ago
Re. Mr. Samson: who doesn’t?
Re. Greg: what an amazing talent. I’d love to work with him. For some reason I bump into him on the sidewalk every six months or so. Maybe I’m meant to ask him.
**For those who don’t know: John (The Weakerthans) Samson was one of my musical collaborators on the Trains of Winnipeg CD, and therefore on several of the film’s soundtracks.
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Q & A's over 2 years ago
Hi Kyle,
Glad you enjoyed the film!
I think the music analogy is a really good one (something I definitely had in mind while making the film). I think of this kind of work as a kind of ‘visual music’, where watching it can FEEL like listening to music.
But to extend that a little further: I think, like some of the best music, that films of this kind benefit from repeated viewings. If you think about it, because film history’s been so dominated by theatrical presentation, we still (habitually) place a lot of emphasis on the ‘single view’. Now that we have growing film libraries at home, and via The Auteurs, this model seems increasingly out-moded. It’s time to place more demand on films, and in return to be willing to give them more than one try (again, as we’re long accustomed to with music).
And I really like the ‘phasing in and out’ comment. I was at a sound art festival once where Christophe Charles encouraged the audience to talk during his (amazing) performance, if they felt like it (no one took him up on it)! He was trying to encourage an alternative approach to his work. I was hoping that this film would work in ‘art cinema’ culture (in a single, theatrical viewing with at least some ‘narrative thrust’, thus the train journey idea — but also to allow for the contemplative space that I think you’re describing (which is part of going on a long train trip).
Each film the soundtrack’s were created in interesting collaborations with the composers (Jason Tait, Christine Fellows, and Emily Goodden). The orders were different in each case, and we worked in living rooms, sound studios, band rehearsal spaces (above a pool hall), and I walked around a lot pointing my microphone at trains. The main exception is the soundtrack for ‘Hitler! (Revisited)’, by sound artist Steve Bates, where we created both works largely independently, and then they came together almost as if my magic.
To-date, it has been very hard to distribute this genre of work, which is why I’m excited to be included in The Auteurs. Trains of Winnipeg screened at some general festivals (like Rotterdam), and then it mostly toured around playing at festivals (and cinematheques and galleries) that specialize in experimental/avant garde film, or at media art festivals, a sound art festival, a literature festival, and at several innovative documentary events. It’s had good quality distribution since then to exhibtors (via the CFMDC.org and EMAF.de), BUT arranging for DVD publication was very frustrating. And now… I think this outcome is MUCH better in the long run, and I hope this will happen for many more works from this part of the film world.
Here’s a sampling of works from my end of the film world that are currently listed on The Auteurs (but not yet playable):
WAVELENGTH, Michael Snow: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/2085
NOSTALGIA, Hollis Frampton: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/2531
DE MOUVEMENT, Richard Kerr: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/20297
TAMALPAIS, Chris Kennedy: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/4091
ALL FALL DOWN, Philip Hoffman: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/20485
MOTHLIGHT, Stan Brakhage:http://www.theauteurs.com/films/3894
THE HEART OF THE WORLD, Guy Maddin: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/2969
RR, James Benning: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/100
ONE WAY BOOGIE WOOGIE, James Benning: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/3116
LANDSCAPE SUICIDE, James Benning: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/21407
SCORPIO RISING, Kenneth Anger: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/3724
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Q & A's over 2 years ago
Hi Kyle,
Glad you enjoyed the film!
I think the music analogy is a really good one (something I definitely had in mind while making the film). I think of this kind of work as a form of ‘visual music’, where watching it can FEEL like listening to music.
But to extend that a little further: I think, like some of the best music, that films of this kind benefit from repeated viewings. If you think about it, because film history’s been so dominated by theatrical presentation, we still (habitually) place a lot of emphasis on the ‘single view’. Now that we have growing film libraries at home, and via The Auteurs, this model seems increasingly out-moded. It’s time to place more demand on films, and in return to be willing to give them more than one try (again, as we’re long accustomed to with music).
And I really like the ‘phasing in and out’ comment. I was at a sound art festival once where Christophe Charles encouraged the audience to talk during his (amazing) performance, if they felt like it (no one took him up on it)! He was trying to encourage an alternative approach to his work. I was hoping that this film would work in ‘art cinema’ culture (in a single, theatrical viewing with at least some ‘narrative thrust’, thus the train journey idea — but also to allow for the contemplative space that I think you’re describing (which is part of going on a long train trip).
In each film the soundtracks were created in interesting collaborations with the composers (Jason Tait, Christine Fellows, and Emily Goodden). The orders were different in each case, and we worked in living rooms, sound studios, band rehearsal spaces (above a pool hall), and I walked around a lot pointing my microphone at trains. The main exception is the soundtrack for ‘Hitler! (Revisited)’, by sound artist Steve Bates, where we created both works largely independently, and then they came together almost as if my magic.
To-date, it has been very hard to distribute this genre of work, which is why I’m excited to be included in The Auteurs. Trains of Winnipeg screened at some general festivals (like Rotterdam), and then it mostly toured around playing at festivals (and cinematheques and galleries) that specialize in experimental/avant garde film, or at media art festivals, a sound art festival, a literature festival, and at several innovative documentary events. It’s had good quality distribution since then to exhibtors (via the CFMDC.org and EMAF.de), BUT arranging for DVD publication was very frustrating. And now… I think this outcome is MUCH better in the long run, and I hope this will happen for many more works from this part of the film world.
Here’s a sampling of titles from my end of filmland that are currently listed on The Auteurs (but not yet playable):
WAVELENGTH, Michael Snow: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/2085
NOSTALGIA, Hollis Frampton: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/2531
DE MOUVEMENT, Richard Kerr: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/20297
TAMALPAIS, Chris Kennedy: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/4091
ALL FALL DOWN, Philip Hoffman: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/20485
MOTHLIGHT, Stan Brakhage:http://www.theauteurs.com/films/3894
THE HEART OF THE WORLD, Guy Maddin: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/2969
RR, James Benning: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/100
ONE WAY BOOGIE WOOGIE, James Benning: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/3116
LANDSCAPE SUICIDE, James Benning: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/21407
SCORPIO RISING, Kenneth Anger: http://www.theauteurs.com/films/3724
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Q & A's over 2 years ago
Sorry for double posts. Not sure what happened.
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Q & A's over 2 years ago
Kyle, I quoted you via Twitter today. Hope you don’t mind.
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Q & A's over 2 years ago
Thanks very much for this:
Kyle’s blog: http://www.asliceofmind.com; & LAW’s: http://nouvellesvague.tumblr.com.
Re. Godspeed You! Black Emperor: I learned about them just after I’d made the film, and it’s a flattering connection (and maybe the best band name ever). And I did perform work from this project once in their cafe-club in Montreal.
I love many dramatic narrative films too (see my TA list), but there’s no question that there’s an exciting wave of non-narrative films coming into view now. Until recently, it’s been a more-or-less hidden part of cinematic history. Works you see in college and certain festivals and never again. And it’s all changing now.
To be completely clear about the distro challenges: with the film’s inclusion here, I couldn’t be happier about how it’s turned out (but thanks for the good luck, it’s always useful).
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Q & A's over 2 years ago
And you jogged my memory. From a review of the Trains of Winnipeg CD:
Joey Sweeney, Philadelphia Weekly: “Top 5 of the Moment – With a musical backing that splits the difference between that sort of Godspeed You! Black Emperor pensiveness and a more propulsive indie inspiration, Holden’s poems are laid out in a great old fogy/young man voice that’ll go down especially well with fans of the blowing plastic bag scene in American Beauty. Trains of Winnipeg is that kind of party.”
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Hi Everyone.
Some of you have had personal attachments to the film since it was premiered in 2004 (thanks to Chris). Others have recently seen it for the first time in late 2009. I’m interested in any and all reactions to the film itself, of course, but especially in observations or questions that highlight the differences between then and now – certain key things have grown, changed, or developed in the last five years (I shot a fair bit of the film in Kodachrome Super 8, for example, which is now a dead medium).
The long-troubled artist-made or independent film distribution situation versus the promise of web distribution + art gallery exhibition is another interesting topic. I assume The Auteurs is just going to get better and better in terms of formats and quality. What’s it going to look like in five years?
Or… maybe you’ve got something else to say.
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Q & A's over 2 years ago
A round table discussion about Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs has begun today in Garage: http://www.theauteurs.com/topics/6664
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Hi,
(First of all, thanks for the kind words where expressed!)
In reverse order:
Brenda: I’m with you in hoping that exposure to the FULL history of cinema will create a desire in students to see at least some films in their original form. I hope that certain work, seen as projected “real film” in a dark theatre, will come to be valued as a rough equivalent to the live music performance (where few would argue that there’s no point, it’s the same as the recording). Audiences will continue to develop their “cinematic viewing chops” over time, and really I think this is all just getting started, it’s still early days for cinema.
Chris: you’re right, I DID make the film with what I called “scaling” in mind, I wanted it to work on a large screen in 35mm and also on tiny screens, without “translation” as you put it. I think you’re right that it’s embedded in this work, but not in some others. And this exhibition variety mirrors the melange of materials I used. It was utopian in a sense (or maybe a bit crazy), trying to blend three film gauges and nine video formats into a “whole” work. But there are works I’d like to make in future that would only work as shown in a traditional cinema, and others in a gallery, and still others that need the capabilities of the internet to “function.” There’s no question for me that certain very “filmic” works would lose all meaning if seen on video, it would be like hearing a symphony on a tiny transistor radio, or worse in some cases where they would all but “disappear”. But in other cases, we might be surprised as resolution increases in the next few years. We’ll be streaming (real) HD soon, and maybe 4K after that, and in ten years all bets are off. With the “must be seen as film” films you’re describing, the real problem is the disappearing projection equipment, where even the truest film purists just won’t be able to get spare parts at some point. That makes me want to cry sometimes, but I want to make art and I want to use whatever I can get my hands on to make it.
Brenda: thanks very much for this: “a meditation on time, death, the extraordinary randomness of experience.” Sweet music to my ears!
Alex: your growing up on the flat-as-a-pancake prairie of southern Saskatchewan, far from the art cinema houses (yet in a very exciting visual context, with all that light as far as the eye can see) brings you to film-making and film exhibition with a special perspective. If not for the curvature of the earth, you might have been able to see us in Winnipeg in the distance, down the rail line, but as you say the isolation is something that’s being transformed now by technology. These days, some of your younger equivalents will be combining “big sky watching” with watching films on The Auteurs. Quite a difference. I know, for myself, I grew up in a small city and saw my first experimental film when I was 21. It changed my life.
Dave: thanks for starting the conversation on such a quality, personal note. VERY nice to hear how the film’s become tied to your own memories, and especially that the work might still resonate at 32 below. We do seem to have mirrored experiences in recent years.
For those who don’t know, Dave’s run the Winnipeg Film Group’s Cinematheque for many years, where I first test-screened the the film outside of the lab. So he was one of the first people to see it, and now in my mind he’s very much part of its history. He’s one of those “programmer heroes” out there, keeping an independent cinematheque alive despite huge challenges, and showing amazing work all the while.
::
One interesting strain that’s running through some of the comments so far is about the re-mixing of the personal and the formal, which is something I thought about a lot while I made these films. I tried to work with the personal, my own memories, feelings, biography, as though they were “raw material” (how can I stretch this, texture it, what will happen if I place it here); and I thought of the film’s formal elements, film stocks, video formats, how they physically or visually interacted with each other, their textures and tones, and their over-all structure, in emotional and personal terms (WHY is hand-made film-making important, why does making art with your mind AND body seem to work better, why are these issues so charged with emotion, are there different kinds of narrative arcs that naturally stem from different cultures)? Or, put another way, there’s something about moving image art that makes me want to approach everything optimistically, holistically. Maybe it’s the movement itself.
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Quick notes, more later:
1. “ToW” is the abbreviation I use myself, so no problem.
2. “ROM” = “Royal Ontario Museum” in Toronto, for non-Canadian readers.
3. And Michael: nice use of “minoritarian!” I love having to look up a word, means I’m learning. On that note, one interesting thought I had this morning was that I know more about my own work than I did 24 hours ago. Thanks for that.
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Also, I agree with Alex re. VHS: for myself, the “horse left the barn” about 25 years ago when people started watching videos instead of going to theatres. Not coincidentally, this coincided with a renewed interest in art cinema and then independent cinema thru the 80’s. But the video store selection remained artificially constricted, with work that didn’t find a commercial distributor left out of the system.
The web won’t solve everything overnight, and some problems are pretty damn hard to solve, but internet-based distribution of various kinds offers some better solutions than we’ve had to choose from in the recent past, with huge potential for growth from here on.
I also think it’s worth noting that if we think REALLY long term (in technological terms, say 25 years down the road), there are going to be big surprises in store, guaranteed. This is a short passage of time in human terms (never mind the planet or universe…), and some of the film works of today will be transferred to “future formats” that might actually “translate” them quite well, who knows? We don’t know what’s coming next, except that we know there will be more change.
In the shorter run, I think some of the film works we’re talking about will be shown in darkened gallery rooms (“blackened white rooms”). At least, I think there’s huge potential there too, as a parallel to the web, that’s already being explored. The simple act of asking a curator to place two rows of seats in a room where a cinema-based installation is being screened, considered too odd just a couple of years ago, is now creating a hybrid cinema/art space where I HOPE film will continue to be shown long term in its many forms, including those works that don’t function as any kind of video.
::
Re. this broader use of the word “voice”: I think of this a lot to do with writing literary fiction (one part of my current project), but I’ve never thought of it to do with filmmaking for some reason. I think it’s an important perspective: all of the “language” (as Chris puts it) that goes into making a film, and especially a film-maker’s body of work, culminates in a recognizable (even if sometimes entirely visual) whole.
(And thank you both for mentioning Lipsett.)
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Also also, agreed that the music is very important.
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
I think some of these questions are human/social, I mean not solely confined to cinema. I THINK people will always be drawn to (non-virtual) communal experiences. And to the “tactile” (in and out of quotations).
When I film with a film camera I look through the lens – the light bounces off surfaces (touches them) and enters my eyes, and I FEEL this in a way that seems tactile (it is, in a sense). When I use a video camera, I look at a tiny monitor, and this seems less tactile, there’s less physicality (it seems halfway between filming and “recording” sound). But I do use video cameras (quite happily) and when I do I sometimes try to add-in some sort of physical element to the making process, to make up for the loss of the thru-the-lens experience. And the reason I do this, is that it seems to produce better results. Engaging the mind + body (a crude way of putting it, it’s not a dichotomy) seems to use more of the whole mind.
Likewise, when we gather together, and “touch” things (cinema screens, or each other), we FEEL, and this transcends mere cleverness, and the habitual.
I made my last “film” with a mix of Super 8 film and a digital SLR (it includes a super-charged equivalent of a “motor drive”). In other words, I was “making video” while looking through a lens again, by using a still camera. Which felt very odd at first, but it worked.
::
Re. optimism: it’s been interesting to read our references to the 80’s, and I remember how bleak things looked at the start of that decade. Then, a lot of things improved during that time, cinema included and partly because of the new “home video market.” For a while, there were amazing independent video stores (mostly long gone, but not all). I know that my favourite had a big impact on my life. Of course, I lived in Montreal at the time and so I also had access to several great cinemas showing the best films in the world as films, surrounded by lovely flesh-and-blood people. The mix was good, no question about it, but I can’t bring that back by wishing it was so.
Winter hit Toronto this week, and glowering out the window doesn’t seem to be changing that. So I look for today’s, this season’s, charms. (The Auteurs is one of them.)
::
Jason: thanks for using the word “whippersnappers.”
::
Note: I live in a city now that also has a fair amount of great cinemas, and lots of excellent festivals and galleries. So it’s still a great “mix.” Although a little less filmic.
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Part of The Auteurs experience, for me, has been accessing the social media community that seems to hover around the films like a virtual storm of communication. The service is more than accessing the “films”, and its future potential (I’m just assuming there will be future developments in terms of formats, etc.), they’ve also done a lot of hard work creating a (very well designed) social experience, that’s wonderfully international – kind of utopian in fact (in the positive sense of the word, if that’s still allowed).
I think it might be interesting to talk about this, along with the presentation of the films. I realize not everyone’s into this yet (social media). But I think, soon, it will be like not owning a phone. And it will be connected, increasingly, to the experience of visual media art. It will “mediate” the experience of “film art”.
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A nice accident: after joining, and filling out my own membership info., and choosing my “Favorite Auteurs,” coincidentally (they’re displayed alphabetically) this is the order of the first six as they appear on-screen:
Bruce Baillie
James Benning
Ingmar Bergman
Stan Brakhage
Vittorio De Sica
Atom Egoyan
The thought of this mix makes my head swim!
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Ways cinema will (continue to) evolve, that will draw people together in one space for the communal experience we’ve all been expressing concern for:
1. by adding live elements to the screening experience, most obviously through live soundtrack performances and other collaborations with musicians/composers; but this will also expand (expanded cinema) to include MANY other live performative aspects; there are lots of contemporary examples of this, including at our amazing Images Festival here in Toronto, but it’s an explosively growing trend wherever cinema’s made.
2. by adding “liveness” to cinematic works, in other words making each viewing experience unique thru adding dynamic or interactive elements to how a film is seen (I’ve been experimenting by using both cinematic and web-creation tools, making works meant for cinema + gallery + web presentation, with dynamically controlled coding to produce liveness); this uniqueness is part of the allure of the live event, when we go to a live music concert it’s partly because of its one-time-only value (along with the attractiveness of the communal cultural experience).
3. other suggestions: __________________________?
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Alley: I’ve only recently become aware of the fascinating “sub-generation gap” you describe, which I think is partly defined by people who’ve grown up with “massively multiplayer online games” (MMOG’s), who have an embedded relationship with the internet that’s quite new and different than the web experience is for people who are… older than 25, approximately? Trying to predict what will happen to cinema in light of this new paradigm is especially hard.
And, I love the description of your truncated train hopping experiences. In researching the world of trains for the film, I came across many new things, the on-line world of trains buffs, contemporary hobo culture, specialist train graffiti artists, and of course the wide world of train hopping (which, among other things, seems to be a type of extreme sport – as it can be quite dangerous); but as you say so well, the attraction to the “larger world” is part of being human, and part of peoples’ love for cinema from the beginning.
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Note: cinema can also be quite dangerous.
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
That’s a really funny clip Tobias. Thanks!
The subject of sound has come up briefly, and this might be a good time to talk about it. Clearly there are some film-making greats who’ve focused mostly or entirely on cinema as visual art (and they feel almost invisible, and pissed at times). But cinema’s also about language (conventional use of the word), and sound (sub-divided into music and non-). My personal tendency, when I’m making anything, is to think in terms of the elements I’m bringing to the table. There has to be enough on the table. If there’s one thing, maybe visual only with no intertext or little narrative (I think there’s always a little – but that’s another debate), then of course that’s great IF that one element is really, really good (but it puts more strain on that element, using it on its own).
Or: with just spoken narration, the famous example I know that stretched the definition of “film” (a la Wikipedia):
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
“Blue is the twelfth and final feature film by director Derek Jarman, released just four months before his death by AIDS-related complications. Such complications had already rendered him partially blind at the time of the film’s release. The film was his last testament as a film-maker, and consists of a single shot of saturated blue colour filling the screen, as background to a soundtrack where Jarman’s and some of his favourite actors’ narration describes his life and vision.
“On its premiere, Channel 4 and BBC Radio 3 collaborated on a simultaneous broadcast so viewers could enjoy a stereo soundtrack. Radio 3 subsequently broadcast the soundtrack separately as a radio play and it was later released as a CD.
“On July 23, 2007 British distributor Artificial Eye released DVD tying Blue together with Glitterbug, a collage of Jarman’s Super 8 footage.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
(Another topic again: we can see how modularity has been part of cinematic experimentation throughout its history – just not in the cineplex.)
But back to “cell phones” (hopefully not for too long): I bought one a couple of years back (guess which one) that has a very good image, and especially good sound on headphones. I watched several movies on it right away, including ToW. The films that relied sufficiently on sound (sound design, soundscape, music and spoken words), or text, or character development (or a mix of these), came across very well. There’s no question it was weird, and still is for me: watching a “movie” in the palm of my hand. And I think a few of these films, especially some of the character dramas, didn’t benefit at all from larger screens (for me, a great character drama is still an important part of cinematic history, even if it doesn’t bring any visual richness to the screen).
Of course, there are other cinematic works that are ridiculous to watch in this way, many too obvious to list. But my first experience of this loss in translation was years ago, and was a wonderfully ridiculous example. When I was 15 the local 500 seat porn cinema was bought by an entrepreneur who turned it into an indie movie house. I headed down there and watched the first film I could see, which was “Doctor Zhivago.” Despite its “problems” (personally, when the full moon comes out I’m not moved to write poetry, I have more of werewolf response), I LOVED all those dazzling fields of daffodils in full filmic glory on a giant screen. This film had what we used to be call “sweep.” Then, a few years later, I watched it again on VHS and it had pretty close to ZERO value (for me) on what was then called the “small screen” (unless you analyzed its politics, but again another subject). So this film might have experienced a kind of death. It ONLY worked on a extra large screen, which it’s rarely going to enjoy ever again (you can sob or cheer, but I have a small sentimental streak that I’m not ashamed of).
So… my simple answer to some of this screen size stuff is: it depends on the film.
And I started this off talking about sound and then segued into thinking of film as a collection of important elements, in different mixes. The main undervalued (or at least less officially recognized) powerful element in cinema is sound. And I will say I thought of this a LOT while making ToW. In fact, as an experiment (while editing), I challenged myself by asking, “what would I do if all of these elements I’m mixing were different instruments in a musical composition (or group), including the moving image, how would that alter my process and the outcome?”
I tried to see the editing interface as a musical score (vertical + horizontal). In the end, I decided it was easier to think of the visuals as a whole “musical section,” which struck the balance I needed.
I think I mentioned “the habitual” somewhere above this too. Some habits are good and necessary, but we should also challenge them regularly, in every walk of life, to stay alive.
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Tobias, re. seeing ToW in a less “intimate” space (the positive side of the headphones + laptop experience, I’m glad you mentioned it, although it’s intertwined with the accelerating generation gap issue): it’s been almost two years since I last saw this film in 35mm (Anthology Film Archives in NYC) and that part of the experience seems to be drifting into the past now, even for me. But it did seem to function well that way, while the print was traveling around. It was meant to be the primary way to see it, however modular a strategy I tried to embed in the work. The disc + web weren’t after thoughts, but intended to be complementary experiences, with their own values.
I’m assuming there will be more “extra large screen” viewing opportunities in the future, but my guess is that most of these (especially ten years from now+) won’t be from 35mm. Blu-ray, etc., etc.
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Jason, re. “compensating by imagining how the experience [film watching] would be different in some supposedly ideal [viewing context]” + “how online distribution of films is likely to make the viewing experience even choppier and more interrupt-able:”
Attention span is a major issue. I know I don’t want to watch smaller screens for as long, without breaks. Not sure how this will play out, except that “web distribution” will soon include much larger and denser images, so that will change things again (as TV quickly becomes “TV” – funny how we’ve avoided mentioning television, which is sort of an elephant in the room).
But art gallery + museum exhibition has to be included in our thoughts, as we’re partly talking about film as “visual art” or “contemporary art” (or whatever you want to call it). These are the institutions that have traditionally shown art to the public. Even in the larger ones with cinematheques included, many of these have focused almost entirely on “art cinema” and have neglected to a large degree the work made by visual artists in film (but not video – “video art” is another elephant, man it’s getting crowded). This is changing rapidly, but it’s an issue that has to be acknowledged when we’re wondering why more people don’t know about “avant garde cinema” (etc.).
I’ve been lucky enough to see my own work looping in “white rooms”, including ToW, and it’s really interesting to see how this affects the same work, in yet another context; how it functions in a new playground.
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Alex, re. “the venue had added resonance, as it’s a basement theatre beside the subway, so there are intermittent vibrations from the trains:” Man, I wish I’d been there!
Jason + Alex re. “watching horrors and comedies with an audience” + “It is that common laughter, or gasping shock that contributes so much to the experience:” I know that for myself, and I imagine for many other film-makers, sitting in the back row with a new film (I think of any genre), and experiencing those little audience shifts, whether audible, or “energetic,” or quasi-physical, is a significant part of assessing a new work. I guess we’ll lose some of this. But on the other hand, we couldn’t do THIS until very recently (and you can’t un-tie cinema’s growing pains from the rest of the techno shifts that are happening).
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Brenda, re. “modularity in a way I find infinitely more satisfying (as an aesthetic experience):” I think it was you who first used the word “modular” here, and it’s a word that I seem to be saying more and more. I’m a bit obsessed with art structure. In my current project I’m thinking a lot about how structures in art and nature relate to each other, about dynamic and organic structures and how they function in an eco-system (which we’re understanding in new ways now), and how they might apply to a work of cinema or art.
“Network” was a sort of buzz word just a short while ago (back before “interactive”), and maybe “modular” should be next. It seems like “dynamic organic modularity” is (sort of…) what I’m aiming at now (I realize this sounds just a little silly, but it is how I think). And of course, the word “organic” has become loaded with freight, but we’ll have to do our best.
I’ve been using the term “dynamic cinema” a lot lately.
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Alley, re. larger home screens: this seems inevitable, and I’m assuming The Auteurs might lead the way with their expertise in streaming. Surely growing bandwidths will equal larger and denser images, or maybe a choice of two or even three sizes, ranging up to 1080p? Without giving away any trade secrets, I’d be very curious what The Auteurs has planned for the next few years. Any hints?
One thing seems clear, at least in the short run: that some form of “rental” (either streaming or timed download) is the strategy that’s most likely to succeed. For myself, I say bring on the “nearly free economy” – like with iTunes, I don’t mind paying if it’s affordable, and I think this is where it’s all heading (obviously, alongside of the “free economy”, which is likely permanent and has brought many benefits).
I know many people who, given the chance, will choose to pay for things if they’re cheap enough and convenient to access. It’s better for artists, and so it’s better for people who want to see their art.
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Alley, re. my current project:
Thanks for asking. It’s called both “U Suite” and “Utopia Suite”, and much of it is collected at: usuite.org. I launched it in the summer of 2006, with events in Toronto at Images Festival, and in Amsterdam as a co-presentation of the Holland Festival and the International Film Festival Rotterdam.
The project has two names because it has twin themes: utopianism, and the letter “U”. I focused primarily on new forms of utopianism in the first chapter, which was just completed.
U Suite will continue to grow until 2020, with many “chapters” and segments within each chapter. They’re modular, meaning they can be re-mixed in different orders, but together they form one organic “suite” of works. It’s a cinema-based, literary and web project. It’s being shown in theatres, galleries, and on the web.
The current dynamic state of cinema is a useful metaphor that runs throughout the project (breaking down, re-forming). In fact, I’ll be experimenting with everything we’ve talked about so far in the Round Table over the next ten years, and combining this with short fictions, and a growing web-based collection of work.
A LOT of it will involve moving images, which for me is the definition of cinema.
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Chris, re. “In reality I am motivated almost entirely by enthusiasm!” Me too. Asking for more just shows you care.
Chris & Alley, re. “tell us more about what you mean by ‘dynamic cinema.’”: hmmm… during U Suite’s Chapter 1 (2006 to 2009), while working and thinking about a renewed, process-oriented, utopianism, I started zeroing-in on organic + dynamic structures in nature and in cinema/art. How do ecosystems actually function (relates to some of the conversation above). How does cinema function? Especially now that it’s (partly) breaking out of the confines of the theatrical distribution model into so many new spaces?
I’m just beginning really, but most of the works so far have had some form of “dynamism” built into them (twin screen diptychs continually re-mixing as one example) and I think they all benefit from cyclical viewing, repeated in other words, moving beyond the beginning-middle-end-stop formula, etc. Think about how differently we listen to music! This is part of where cinema’s heading.
But then I started playing with hybrid blends of cinema-making and web creation tools (relatively crude and accessible ones like javascript + animated GIFs). One early result is ‘Ken Dryden’, which has been screened in traditional cinemas, looped in galleries, and is available in full on the web here: ken.utopiasuite.com. It takes around eight minutes for the work to loop once, and it’s different each time because the javascript instructs the page to randomly select, from several choices, which “animated GIF” is displayed in its part of the screen – a bit technical for some, but the point is that it’s dynamic, always changing, and yet (I hope) it’s also “organic”, it’s one whole.
And of course, all of this is continually re-mixing with the soundtrack (designed by Rotterdam-based composer Oscar van Dillen, also available here as an mp3 download: http://cyclopspress.com/KenDryden/kendryden.mp3).
U Suite’s chapter 2 (2009 to 2012) will go quite a bit further into this idea of “dynamic cinema”.
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Round Table: Trains of Winnipeg + The Auteurs, Avant Garde Films, Web Distro, & You over 2 years ago
Hi James,
I don’t think there’s any doubt that expanding the breadth of the kinds of cinema people have access to will change the history of film-making. So far, we’ve only been exposed to a fraction of what’s possible (however good some of that’s been). That’s part of the excitement of cinema, that it’s so young.
And part of what’s going to happen is to do with world culture. The tools of film production coming into the hands of the people, all over the world. New voices. New eyes.
But we need to be able to see it.
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