The only list that I, for one, am actually interested in seeing.
So what moves up? What moves down? What will be new? Who’s lists are you looking forward to seeing?
I’m particularly interested in people’s thoughts about the directors list.
On the directors’ list, I predict Lawrence of Arabia will be moving down, and that Fanny and Alexander will be among the top ten (I also expect it to move into the top ten on the critics’ list as well). A move up for Rules of the Game on the directors’ list as well.
as for lists I’m interested in seeing, their are several. But last time I really liked Catherine Breillat’s list, and am interested in seeing how her taste has developed over the past decade.
and for the love of god, please don’t kill this thread with another half-informed debate about canons. They exist, get over it.
Well in last months issue David Thomson wrote an article trying to get people to reconsider Citzen Kane as number 1, so maybe it’ll be less predictable than usual. Do people think any films from the last 20 years will make it?
As long as the films are non-American, un-American or are anti-anglophone, then we can discuss civilly.
Went surfing around the site and found this quote from Jonathan Rosenbaum:
“I’ve included a serial, an unfinished trilogy and two shorts, but assume it’s no longer necessary to mention Chaplin, Godard, Hitchcock, Ozu, Renoir or Welles.”
I see he’s actually a member here, although he doesn’t actively participate, but damn if this quote doesn’t make him a patron saint of the Mubi majority.
I particularly liked Assayas’ description of his choices for the 2002 poll:
“I did it instinctively, putting down the names as they came to me, then boiling them down to ten, making cabbalistic adjustments I couldn’t begin to explain, let alone justify. The embarrassing result is that there isn’t a single American film even though I’ve seen more American movies I’ve admired than I can remember, and there isn’t a single Asian film even though I consider Mizoguchi, Ozu and Hou Hsiao-hsien to be among the greatest film-makers of any time in any culture.”
and I don’t think Citizen Kane is going anywhere.
But last time I really liked Catherine Breillat’s list, and am interested in seeing how her taste has developed over the past decade.
Okay, thanks for that like to Breillat RUS.
Her rationale is the way films should be discussed – as art.
“As long as the films are non-American, un-American or are anti-anglophone, then we can discuss civilly.”
Jesus Christ… Turn six already, Robert.
I love the individual lists a lot. There’s actually a ton of variety in them.
I don’t have any predictions, though it would be cool if Citizen Kane moved down in favour of something like Rules of the Game.
And I really love what Breillat says about Ten.
See Dushane, this is what I am talking about: I don’t have any predictions, though it would be cool if Citizen Kane moved down in favour of something like Rules of the Game.
Rather than talk about either as art, it is the power dynamic that interests you older kids.
No, I will remain at the age of six until I see a good reason to grow up.
We can discuss the films. I’d love nothing more, and I have a definitive reasoning as to why I would like Rules of the Game to be the “greatest film ever made” as opposed to Citizen Kane.
And your original post on this thread was all about discussing the films as art, right? And yet it’s okay for you to push that total bullshit on us, but the minute I refute it I need to scolded and lectured? Grow the fuck up.
The thread was started with the intention of discussing the list in general, not the films specifically. Which is specifically the reason why I said something very general about the list. Get it?
But I’m not going to hijack the thread because Robert wants to prove to everyone how intelligent he is… so I’ll just say, the game is old, Robert.
I wonder if Satantango, or Werckmeister Harmonies will make it onto the list… or even the periphery of it. Tarr’s critical reputation has risen quite a bit in the last decade.
The big list will remain the same, with some parts switched. I’d be surprised if anything moved up/down more than 3 spots.
Grow the fuck up.
HELL NO !!!
Thar ya go again:
Rules of the Game to be the “greatest film ever made” as opposed to Citizen Kane
All about the power dynamic of “greatest” .
What does greatest have to do with anything in terms of film discussion?
Without her rationale, Breillat’s rankings mean less than nothing to me.
“I wonder if Satantango, or Werckmeister Harmonies will make it onto the list”
I’ll be HIGHLY surprised if Werckmeister even makes it above Satantango in any final tally.
Robert, chill out. You’re making yourself look incredibly daft. I would love it if Satantango managed to break into the list but I seriously doubt it will, judging by how ‘Conservative’ the list actually is also I doubt enough of those who actually vote in these things have actually seen it. I would like Andrei Rublev to finally make it though, it’s rather bizarre that it hasn’t yet. The only one that seems totally out of place was 2002’s Godfather at number 4 – great film yes, among the ten greatest ever certainly not.
Yes, I should bow out here. I don’t make lists so this isn’t for me and for those who do,
I hold no disregard – I do find films from their lists.
“What does greatest have to do with anything in terms of discussion?”
Nothing, unless you’re having a discussion about which film is the greatest. Then it has a lot to do with it.
“What does greatest have to do with anything in terms of discussion?”
Uhhhhh… I might as well just start running my head into the wall…
“Without her rationale, Breillat’s rankings mean less than nothing to me.”
It is interesting, though, that the director’s that submit lists generally justify their selections more often than critics that do…
“I’ll be HIGHLY surprised if Werckmeister even makes it above Satantango in any final tally.”
Werckmeister Harmonies has certainly gotten much more critical attention upon release than Satantango did so I don’t think it would be surprising if it was ranked higher; wherever it may or may not be ranked.
“I would like Andrei Rublev to finally make it though, it’s rather bizarre that it hasn’t yet.”
I would expect Bresson and Ozu to do well, Naruse to feature more. I’d be pleasantly surprised if Rules of the Game bounced back to threaten Kane, which may be at risk from Vertigo. But what matters more than such placings- and of course the results are dependent on this- is the composition of those polled; needs to be much less Anglophone and more geographically balanced than before, but no signs in the last 2 S&S editions that this is on the agenda.
@ Allan, I think Satantango will do well
Robert said, “Her rationale is the way films should be discussed – as art.”
Her films seem to be the ones that influenced her the most as a filmmaker or at least affected her in a personal way, which is not necessarily the same as “greatest films.” It’s a valid way to make a list, but I’m more interested in the latter. (Well, I’m interested in the former, too, but not as much as the latter.)
Jazz you never change! :)
To me is more interesting the first because I can see especific relations. The latter (“greatest films” whatever that means) is too abstract to me.
Anyway, I feeel The Gods Must Be Crazy is going to get in the top 5
I’m crossing my fingers
I think a list of a filmmaker’s favorite films or films that influenced than the most is interesting. But the reasons for choosing these films are sometimes so personal that the reasons may not be compelling to anyone else. So the exercise to put aside those really personal reactions and just just a film based on its quality can also be interesting.
“Werckmeister Harmonies has certainly gotten much more critical attention upon release than Satantango did so”
It IS surprising indeed because Werckemeister was also loved by a large share of cinephiles whilst Satantango is yet to be seen by many!
(yeah, 2,5 hours is vastly different than 6-7)
What’s really surprising is how little attention Damnation gets, which may be the best film he’s ever made. ;P (^That’s for Rob and Dim)
But yeah if I were to guess I’d imagine Satantango would be the one to make it (sacred cows and all)…
What’d think the chances of Jansco making it are?
I’d love to see a Jansco (Electra would be a truly bold move) but it’s like saying I want to see something else other than Apu from Ray’s filmography getting an accolade. Will Sight and Sound ever be bold in the future or will we be seeing the same old songs for the next couple of decades? I don’t mind bitching about Rules or Vertigo and the decline of Kane but….is that what’s cinema about? “Sacred cows” and all?
(and if one of the two films is a sacred cow, then that’s definitely Werckmeister, the hype for this film is way more popular than Satantango nowadays)
I also love Damnation more than both of them.
Nick James the S&S editor said of Satantango something along the lines of its being a holy grail/temple of cinema for many critics so maybe it rides high in his circle. He and his colleagues can determine the result by who they decide to poll cos often they will have an idea of some likely films selected. All the more reason to go well beyond their usual suspects of respondents
How filmmakers and critics are chosen to send a list? are they even chosen or what?
my stupid predictions (not my stupid opinions):
I see some downward movement on Coppola on the “best director” lists. Sorry, Francis. You done us proud. “Godfather 1&2” might take a small hit as well. This all depends on how many baby boomers are still voting. Have they grown out of their “Godfather” phase?
On individual lists, I predict Kubrick “Barry Lyndon” folks will try to make a noble but unsuccessful move to be part of the conversation, but their movement will fall apart at the last moment. A few “Eyes Wide Shut” true-believers will branch off and try to make a stink, but in general, cooler heads will prevail and they will log in their Kubrick vote for “2001.” or “Strangelove” No Kubrick movement.
I predict a similar move will also be made by “Nights of Caberia” Fellini-heads, which might sink “8 1/2” a smidgeon.
I predict there will be some SS poll, maybe not 2012, where The Bresson crazies (no offense- love you guys) launch a successful coup de tat and launch Bresson high into the best director list, for one glorious but brief period.
“Citizen Kane” is secure. Vanilla ice cream is yummy.
“Roshomon” might take a small hit. I sense that some of the “Roshomon” votes are Kurosawa votes (“Seven Samurai is on the list, but that is not enough!”) and there might be some defections.
Will the panning of “Socialism” bring Godard down a peg on the “best director’s list?” Yes. Though that will be slightly unfair.
Damnation doesn’t get the recognition as it is not better than Satantango or Werckmiester, all three are superb but it hasn’t the ambition and confidence of the other two and how exactly is Satantango a sacred cow – barely anyone has seen it for it to reach such status. I hope Turin Horse is better than Man from London, I found that a terribly disappointing film. Though the Damnation ending is one of the best things I have ever seen. Also I’ve only seen 3 Jancso, I just finished watching My Way Home just now which I feel vastly superior to Red and White and Round up but still not one of the greatest films ever made. His films are beautiful to look at but I feel they lack something, they’re too flabby and opaque for me.
I’d love to see them go totally left field and include The Baby of Mâcon by Peter Greenaway. Just looked through the top tens over the years and on top of my surprise about Andrei Rublev, they haven’t included Battle of Algiers or Last Year In Marienbad among lots of others. Bizarre.
Also Film Socialism did really well in the Sight and Sound end of the year poll. and out of all the Kurosawa I have seen I still find Rashomon the least interesting, I’d love it if Ran or Red Beard got more attention. I’m going to watch my first Hou Hsiao Hsien film now, three times – based on this fellas rep, I’m exited!
I expect Herzog will enter into the overall tally, though not into the top 10.
I do expect to see Tarkovsky move into the top 10 with either Rublev or Stalker.
For the #1 spot, the candidates are Citizen Kane, The Rules of the Game and Vertigo.
And nothing from the 90s onward.
more thoughts of no consequence:
will the Rohmer crowd finally get organized? (Hint: Cheat, guys. Cheat. Vote for :“the Six Moral Tales”, and not individual films.) The problem with the Rohmer voters is this: Can they get organized? Or, like their hero, do they refuse to have telephones?
Also: Satyajit Ray people need organization also. Either pick “Apu Trilogy” or “Pather Pancialli”. I recommend the latter. get it done, people.